The 4-3 Cover 2 (and where my last post went wrong) - long

[ghost2]

Great stuff ghost. Thanks.

I'd love it if you or someone else here could elaborate on how one would adjust a base 4-3 cover 2 to spread attacks and also the shallow cross concept - Richt is a big proponent of the latter so if he says he likes this defense he clearly knows how he would deal with his own offensive ideas within it.

Briefly, there are many looks you can use to offset spread offenses. "Quarters" coverage - also using Nickel (5th DB) or even Dime (6 DB) looks for much of what we might face vs. the spread as well. Interestingly, the Dime or 3-2-6 look can disguise itself as a standard 3-4 look and apply many of the same pressures of that look as well.

You might also see some "robber" Cover 1 or Cover 3 looks, in which the FS bails to center field while the SS cheats up to play man-up on a WR or in run defense. Shannon ran some of this in his nickel packages IIRC.

Here's a great read from last year on LSU's 4-3 defense vs. the spread and what we (hopefully) may see some of at Miami: How LSU builds defenses that shut down spread offenses - SBNation.com

Vs. crossing patterns you can "pass off" guys in zone from LB to LB/DB to keep the crossing WRs in front of you - that's how Shannon adjusted (finally) to getting murdered by those shallow crosses year after year...

 

[Cats3x]

Cover Two and Tampa 2 aren't the same thing. The post says so, anyone that coaches football says so as well.

Most colleges that run two high play Quarters, 2 Read (New age Cover 2 with pattern reading), Quarter/Quarter half, or even two man.

If you want to live in 2 man you end up in Nickel and Dime packages because of the spread. Hard to live in it like the old days because of spread sets.

I would guess Richt is wanting a mixture of two high looks. Cover 2, 2 Read, Quarters, 2 Man. I'm just hoping no Tampa 2. I hate that coverage, I think offenses have begun to exploit it.

 

[LuCane]

Cover Two and Tampa 2 aren't the same thing. The post says so, anyone that coaches football says so as well.

Most colleges that run two high play Quarters, 2 Read (New age Cover 2 with pattern reading), Quarter/Quarter half, or even two man.

If you want to live in 2 man you end up in Nickel and Dime packages because of the spread. Hard to live in it like the old days because of spread sets.

I would guess Richt is wanting a mixture of two high looks. Cover 2, 2 Read, Quarters, 2 Man. I'm just hoping no Tampa 2. I hate that coverage, I think offenses have begun to exploit it.

I'm with this guy. I think the days of Tampa-2 being consistently effective are over. Teams motion guys into the middle of the field and then get a WR matched up on a MLB struggling to get to his deep 3rd. Then, Safeties overcompensate for this weakness and you effectively just squeezed the entire coverage. More quarters against spread. More hybrid coverages. Most people wanted a "hybrid" defense, as it relates to alignment. I just want an aggressive front with adaptable coverage(s) behind it. Keep it simple, but disguise it. Keep it aggressive. I'll be happy.

This DC decision basically determines our happiness, as fans, for the next couple years.

 

[ghost2]

Yeah the old Tampa-2 a la Dungy/Kiffin has sorta gone the way of the dodo. Like Lu said, the secondary/coverage scheme is where you keep things "multiple", allowing the fronts to play more downhill.


Going back to the Michigan State analogy (since I LOVE their philosophy in this scheme) -

Narduzzi and Dantonio used a LOT of "Press Quarters" coverage with CBs playing man and safeties close to the line of scrimmage allowing for better run protection and pressure options. Dantonio called it the "mother of all coverages" and had at least 10 different variations on that single look (read more here: Doing it with defense: Michigan State relies on 'press quarters' for rise to national prominence | MLive.com)

That said, the spread was really messing with Press Quarters via playaction and screens, so Dantonio recently tweaked it to include different coverages from the same defensive "look." So the QB sees that Press Quarter every time (everybody close), but maybe a safety bails at the last minute, or it turns into a more Cover-3 or Zone Blitz post-snap.

It's this kind of thing that's been lacking here recently - multiple pressure areas from the same look. I feel the same way about offense, BTW - trotting out different personnel for different plays tells everyone in the stadium what we're about to run. Better to run 3 or 4 formations and a dozen plays from each than to have 24 different "looks", IMO.

 

[FullyERicht]

The Tampa-2 is still an effective 3rd and long coverage, with some tweaks: corners sink over #1 instead of jam and squat under #1 .

Reality of the Kiffin defense is that they play a ton of Cover 3 and Cover 1.

 

[ghost2]

The Tampa-2 is still an effective 3rd and long coverage, with some tweaks: corners sink over #1 instead of jam and squat under #1 .

Reality of the Kiffin defense is that they play a ton of Cover 3 and Cover 1.

Very true, and I was speaking more of the Tampa 2 as base coverage a la MSU's Press Quarters or Shannon's Cover 2-Man.

 

[LuCane]

The Tampa-2 is still an effective 3rd and long coverage, with some tweaks: corners sink over #1 instead of jam and squat under #1 .

Reality of the Kiffin defense is that they play a ton of Cover 3 and Cover 1.

T-2 is essentially Cover 3, except your deep 1/3 is a much slower, less rangier dude. The tweaks necessary basically make it a different style of coverage, which is fine. I'll repeat that none of this matters unless the front is complementary of what we try to do with the coverages. For so long, and I think I wrote this in Ghost's original thread, we were passive up front yet somehow asking guys to stay tied together in the back. Obviously, things would fall apart.

In the NFL, the Bengals are doing cool things with their fronts. Would love to see AQM used next year the way the Bengals have sometimes let Michael Johnson roam around. What they do isn't all that complicated, but there are remnants of Mike Zimmer disguising like crazy and then just shoving double-A GAP blitzes down the QB's throat. Fun stuff to watch at any level. Potentially dominant stuff at the college level.

"If a QB doesn't have time to make a good decision, the offense loses its advantage of knowing the plan."
"If you make a superstar RB change direction in the backfield, you already won."

 

[ghost2]

Some examples of different blitzes using the front 7 -

Overload Blitz - Michigan State 3 Deep Overload Blitzes | James Light Football




You can see how the pressure doesn't have to be the 2 LBs running up the middle. In this case, the DE slants into the A as well while the Nickel, Sam, and Mike flood into the overloaded side.

 

[ghost2]

Here's an old article about Zimmer's Double-A Gap blitzes in Cincinnati - Cincinnati Bengals' Double A-Gap blitz package turns defense of nobodies into elite unit | NJ.com

 

[Canezum5]

Yeah the old Tampa-2 a la Dungy/Kiffin has sorta gone the way of the dodo. Like Lu said, the secondary/coverage scheme is where you keep things "multiple", allowing the fronts to play more downhill.


Going back to the Michigan State analogy (since I LOVE their philosophy in this scheme) -

Narduzzi and Dantonio used a LOT of "Press Quarters" coverage with CBs playing man and safeties close to the line of scrimmage allowing for better run protection and pressure options. Dantonio called it the "mother of all coverages" and had at least 10 different variations on that single look (read more here: Doing it with defense: Michigan State relies on 'press quarters' for rise to national prominence | MLive.com)

That said, the spread was really messing with Press Quarters via playaction and screens, so Dantonio recently tweaked it to include different coverages from the same defensive "look." So the QB sees that Press Quarter every time (everybody close), but maybe a safety bails at the last minute, or it turns into a more Cover-3 or Zone Blitz post-snap.

It's this kind of thing that's been lacking here recently - multiple pressure areas from the same look. I feel the same way about offense, BTW - trotting out different personnel for different plays tells everyone in the stadium what we're about to run. Better to run 3 or 4 formations and a dozen plays from each than to have 24 different "looks", IMO.

Exactly, im really glad you used Dantonios defense as an example. I always refer to him when people ask how the 4-3 can be used to stop the spread.

You really don't need to go into nickel and dime packages When you have a Will that is athletic as denicos allen or jermaine grace. They may be linebackers but that blend of speed and toughness is always great for disguises because offenses will try to attack what seems to be the weak link.
Pretty sure denicos allen led the team in tackles
Thats the beauty of the recruiting base here. you get a plethora of those hybrid safety/Will linebackers.. tough enough to get scrappy in the trenches but fast enough to cover TEs and WR's.

we don't need to be so multiple to be successful.

 

[ghost2]

That's a great point about so many "Rover"/hybrid types in South Florida. Those 6'2, 190 lb backers with 4.5-4.6 speed who can cover ground and hit...

 

[FullyERicht]

That's a great point about so many "Rover"/hybrid types in South Florida. Those 6'2, 190 lb backers with 4.5-4.6 speed who can cover ground and hit...

Those kids in the old days were told from day 1 they were OLBs, and after a redshirt and some weight room, were 6'2 and 220. Heck, they used to play cats at 210 at OLB. Spill it and kill it works.

 

[Canezum5]

That's a great point about so many "Rover"/hybrid types in South Florida. Those 6'2, 190 lb backers with 4.5-4.6 speed who can cover ground and hit...

Those kids in the old days were told from day 1 they were OLBs, and after a redshirt and some weight room, were 6'2 and 220. Heck, they used to play cats at 210 at OLB. Spill it and kill it works.

Right.

We need to get back to recruiting corners for safety, safeties for linebackers, linebackers for DE, and DT'S.

We just need better talent evaluation for our defensive scheme.

I watched Bud foster dominate with a lil Saltine kid by the name og cody grimm.

Scrappy lil OLB.

 

[DuffleBagYoda]

Tell Lovie smith too

 

[88]

Does the "under" in "4-3 under" signify the defensive front (3 technique weak side) or something in coverage?

 

[ghost2]

The front I believe.

 

[RiDLer80]

I have the same concern about our safeties in a cover-2 scheme. I don't think they're that rangy. I too worry about them on the back end. I know Richt specifically mentioned the Miami 4-3, cover-2, but to help cover for our safeties I'd like to see us run more quarters coverage. Similar to what Narduzzi did at Michigan State.

Here's an excerpt about their defense from Grantland:

Down after down, Michigan State lines up in what looks like the same basic, predictable front, with apparently the same coverage behind it: a “4-3 Over” front paired with “Quarters,” which is also known as “Cover 4.”2 The 4-3 Over is the oldest and most straightforward front in football, and it’s exactly what fans think of when they hear “4-3,” as it features four defensive linemen and three linebackers behind them. Quarters or Cover 4 coverage is a little trickier. While it’s a zone coverage, it doesn’t merely call for four defenders to drop to a deep zone, as the name might seem to imply. It’s played with considerably more nuance, particularly at Michigan State.

At a 2009 coaching clinic, Dantonio described Quarters as “tight-man in a zone coverage with good run support that self-adjusts to various formations and routes.” The key part is “self-adjusts to various formations and routes,” because MSU’s Quarters isn’t so much a single coverage or defense as it is a set of principles that allows the Spartans to handle just about anything an offense tries.3

MSU’s scheme depends on the safeties, who have to make the most adjustments. They begin much closer to the line than most teams’ safeties, usually around eight or nine yards deep, and, numbering the offense’s eligible receivers from the outside in, they look through the no. 2 receiver to the offensive line for their initial keys. If the no. 2 receiver runs past that eight-ish yard mark, he belongs to the safety in what’s essentially man-to-man coverage. But if that receiver runs a short route inside or outside, the safety passes him off to the linebackers helping underneath and becomes a “robber” player, keying the no. 1 receiver and the quarterback while trying to intercept any throws to the inside.

Full Article

 

[Thommy30w]

When Monte Kiffin coached at USC, one of the radio guys (Petros) said the Tampa 2 wouldnt work in college because the hash marks are different than the pros. I am pretty sure we played this defense when Randy was our DC but it was a disaster at USC with one of the guys who helped invent the defense running it. Thoughts?

We did not play it at all. In fact the Tampa-2 and the "Miami" 4-3 have a lot less in common than you would think.

Randy's base was 4-3 Cover 2 man under. There are differences with that defense as well.

Cool. I always thought we just played cover 2 like Tampa. I was always puzzled why it worked for us and not USC. Now I know its a different defense.

 

[ghost2]

Good read - thanks for that.

 

[Cats3x]

When Monte Kiffin coached at USC, one of the radio guys (Petros) said the Tampa 2 wouldnt work in college because the hash marks are different than the pros. I am pretty sure we played this defense when Randy was our DC but it was a disaster at USC with one of the guys who helped invent the defense running it. Thoughts?

We did not play it at all. In fact the Tampa-2 and the "Miami" 4-3 have a lot less in common than you would think.

Randy's base was 4-3 Cover 2 man under. There are differences with that defense as well.

Cool. What are the main differences? I always thought we just played cover 2 like Tampa. I was always puzzled why it worked for us and not USC. Now I know its a different defense.

For starters Miami played man to man underneath. Tampa Two is pure zone, safeties in deep halves and Mike dropping deep to protect the post/Match #3 Vertical.