Talent and defense

[supacane]

I don't know when this happened, but when has it become paramount for a team to field a good or decent defense, they have to have 5 star players in every position? When has this become a requirement. I can name two teams who have recruited nowhere near the level we recruited even in down cycles.....who every year they field dominant defenses. VT AND Michigan St. A lot of you are forced feeding this cool aid to people who don't know better. But let me tell you something. Being in the right spot and not making a play is lack of talent. Ala AJ getting beat by Benjamin. Leaving the TE and Rb wide open to catch passes 5 yards then get 20 yards before contact......continuously is playcalling, not even scheme....play calling. We forced a lot of third and medium and long and could not get them off the field because our coaching staff refuses to play man coverage consistently. If we had no talent like you all claim we would not force 3rd and long. If it was all about talent wouldn't all the blue bloods have great defenses? Why is georgia fans hating on grantham? Why did texas get gashed for 550 yards by the mormons? Does Texas have a talent problem. Why did they fire their DC? Why have the played better since including totally shutting OU down? We have enough players to field a decent defense. These players don't get to show their athletic talent you claim they don't have because 90% of the time they are covering grass then reacting to the other team play call. Is there a wonder there is so many busts and wide open players? The play where Bush intercepted the pass it was man under with the safety helping. We see too little of this coverage. We can cover any team we played. But even against UNC and WF this over reliance on zone coverage.....why? We have to mix it up but every critical play they made against us passing it was zone coverage. Dump offs or deep ins over the middle. If we want to get back to Miami of old....we need more DL particularly at DT but to not get anihilated by any team with a pulse and stop any QB with a pulse...mthe likes of Renner and Rettig.... all we need is better play calling. This defense is the same as last year. There are less Randy players on the team than last year. FSU got better our monster class got older but they beat us worse? What gives. You complain about Gaines. But Kirby 4 star recruit can't unseat him? Recruited by Golden......
Its more excuses for mediocrity and horrible defense. 500 yards given up to FSU....fine they are more talented 500 yards given up to UNC......what's the excuses?

 

[TexasCane90]

Didn't read I'm guessing it include something about VT and their stupid lunch pail...

Look comes down to getting the best jimmies and joes talent wise..
And the Xs and Os and putting those athletic freaks in the best position every time

 

[Dghustla]

Who said anything about needing only 5 star players?

First, Highsmith,Gaines,Rogers,Green, would they be on the two deep at these schools u named?
It's either strong unathletic marginal skilled vets or risk damaging underclass men.

2) what happens when these low rated elite defenses play high rated offenses in big bowl games? They get slaughtered!

The cupboard was EMPTY when Golden got here. No QBs no DBs no LBs no WR no DL

 

[Jax Cane]

I don't know when this happened, but when has it become paramount for a team to field a good or decent defense, they have to have 5 star players in every position? When has this become a requirement. I can name two teams who have recruited nowhere near the level we recruited even in down cycles.....who every year they field dominant defenses. VT AND Michigan St. A lot of you are forced feeding this cool aid to people who don't know better. But let me tell you something. Being in the right spot and not making a play is lack of talent. Ala AJ getting beat by Benjamin.

Leaving the TE and Rb wide open to catch passes 5 yards then get 20 yards before contact......continuously is playcalling, not even scheme....play calling. We forced a lot of third and medium and long and could not get them off the field because our coaching staff refuses to play man coverage consistently. If we had no talent like you all claim we would not force 3rd and long. If it was all about talent wouldn't all the blue bloods have great defenses?

Why is georgia fans hating on grantham? Why did texas get gashed for 550 yards by the mormons? Does Texas have a talent problem. Why did they fire their DC? Why have the played better since including totally shutting OU down? We have enough players to field a decent defense.

These players don't get to show their athletic talent you claim they don't have because 90% of the time they are covering grass then reacting to the other team play call. Is there a wonder there is so many busts and wide open players? The play where Bush intercepted the pass it was man under with the safety helping. We see too little of this coverage. We can cover any team we played. But even against UNC and WF this over reliance on zone coverage.....why? We have to mix it up but every critical play they made against us passing it was zone coverage.

Dump offs or deep ins over the middle. If we want to get back to Miami of old....we need more DL particularly at DT but to not get anihilated by any team with a pulse and stop any QB with a pulse...mthe likes of Renner and Rettig.... all we need is better play calling. This defense is the same as last year. There are less Randy players on the team than last year. FSU got better our monster class got older but they beat us worse? What gives. You complain about Gaines. But Kirby 4 star recruit can't unseat him? Recruited by Golden......
Its more excuses for mediocrity and horrible defense. 500 yards given up to FSU....fine they are more talented 500 yards given up to UNC......what's the excuses?

0

 

[nycane]

al recruited well considerign the ncaa but i think people forget about development. georgia and clemson are top recruiting classes every year and then loss 3-4 games a year

 

[Dghustla]

So 1 4 star LB is the difference? It takes years to build these units. U failed to mention that Beamer started with a losing record for 5 years.

And Michigan state built their team up for years. They have only upper classmen playing and not undersized freshman and sophomores who don't know the playbook and scheme thoroughly. VaTech is playing 1 freshman DB due to injuries.

You know many teams run zone with success? You think Jimmy Gaines and Highsmith can plan man coverage? Lulz

 

[supacane]

I just wanna know why people acting as if its ok for us to have this terrible defense and acting as if only talent can make a defense better. As for as I'm concern our defense didn't get any better. Gashed by UF, GT for a half, FSU (understandable), UNC and WF. The rest are glorified cupcakes. Our play calling is not good. Thats why teams can go 9/9 on third down against us. Not some huge talent gap. Give me a break with all that. If they need 8 yards and our DBs are 10 yards off.....u can do the math. Also stunting our DEs inside and DTs outside is begging for them to break contain outside. These are not talent issues . A DT is not chasing a QB like Winston to the sideline. Teams do better with less and we are lucky to even be in position to recruit elite players. And we need those to win championships but that's getting you over the hump. Not to form a basis for doing basic stuff. Coaching makes talent look better and talent makes coaching look better. Apparently its one sided because our defense has been putrid since D no has been here. And btw the day Randy was fired we were second in the ACC in total offense and first in total defense. And you will get nocomplaints from me of how horrible ue was here.

 

[Canes_]

Gaines
Pierre
Highsmith
Renfrow
Green
Cornelius

We started those guys last night and they played the majority of the game. Now tell me which ones would PLAY for VT or MSU? Forget about stars, tell me who wanted them out of High School? Who did we beat Green out for? Gaines? Renfrow was told he wasn't going to play at VIRGINIA.

Fact is Shannon's last two classes were terrible and those guys are the upperclassmen on the team.

The difference with the three stars on VT, MSU, etc. is their coaches have a system in place and recruit certain players that fit. In other words, they know what they're doing. With Shannon he brought in struggle recruits after getting whipped by UF and FSU. The guy said he found Asante Cleveland on Youtube, smh what a joke.

 

[supacane]

Those are the same type of players Golden had at Temple. And we have better players than those on the depth chart at each of those positions. .....we just never see them much.

 

[Coach Macho]

Listen to (read) what the man is saying about schematics. He has a point.

We do stuff on defense that makes little to no sense schematically.

Are we void of talent at some spots? Yes. But that doesn't explain offensive players being wide open and us not having a defender anywhere near him to contest. That doesn't explain Nick O'Leary standing in the flats by himself without a defender in site. (then he catches the ball and runs over Howard for 3 yards to result in a 1st down)

Talent has nothing to do with us stunting our DT's to the outside and giving up contain cause we have a slow *** DT holding the edge.

Talent has nothing to do with the fact that our LB's stand there and stare at the QB while there's a WR standing right next to them.

We slanted our DE inside and had nobody to hold contain, on Winston's right side of all places, and he just scrambled right for a first down uncontested.


Schematically there are holes all throughout this defense and anybody who doesn't see it is just being naive or doesn't know what to look for.

 

[BALDYCHUTES]

Supa, its both.

Its both. Defense is beating the man in front of you. And its great that VT gets their players in position more often than D'nofrio, but the fact is, if you want to beat the FSU's and Bama's, you also have to beat the guy in front of you. Miami does not have the horses like they used to and if you can't see that, I can't help you. Are you seriously arguing that Olsen Pierre or Renfro are the equivalent of Sapp or Jerome Brown so long as they get in the right spot? The fact is, even if our guys were in the right spot last night on a consistent basis, they are not going to beat the guy in front of them because there is an obvious, undeniable talent disparity and like it or not, it matters. When was the last time UM got pressure up front with just 4????????? We are not beating the man in front, because we lack the talent to do so.

****, even you admit it matters on the 30 vs. Benjamin play, so what is your point?

Yes, we have enough players to field a decent D, UM is 7-1 and better than average in every D category. Whats your point? Do you think VT or MSU were stopping FSU last night? No, they were not. Neither has the horses, which probably explains why they have no national titles. And last I checked, THAT IS THE GOAL AND HISTORY PROVES IT TAKES TOP TALENT.

Its both and all you have to do is look at history. Tell me the last time UM won a ship without at least a couple 1st rounders, real difference makers on the D??? Seriously, what is your point, in 10 words or less.

I don't know when this happened, but when has it become paramount for a team to field a good or decent defense, they have to have 5 star players in every position? When has this become a requirement. I can name two teams who have recruited nowhere near the level we recruited even in down cycles.....who every year they field dominant defenses. VT AND Michigan St. A lot of you are forced feeding this cool aid to people who don't know better. But let me tell you something. Being in the right spot and not making a play is lack of talent. Ala AJ getting beat by Benjamin. Leaving the TE and Rb wide open to catch passes 5 yards then get 20 yards before contact......continuously is playcalling, not even scheme....play calling. We forced a lot of third and medium and long and could not get them off the field because our coaching staff refuses to play man coverage consistently. If we had no talent like you all claim we would not force 3rd and long. If it was all about talent wouldn't all the blue bloods have great defenses? Why is georgia fans hating on grantham? Why did texas get gashed for 550 yards by the mormons? Does Texas have a talent problem. Why did they fire their DC? Why have the played better since including totally shutting OU down? We have enough players to field a decent defense. These players don't get to show their athletic talent you claim they don't have because 90% of the time they are covering grass then reacting to the other team play call. Is there a wonder there is so many busts and wide open players? The play where Bush intercepted the pass it was man under with the safety helping. We see too little of this coverage. We can cover any team we played. But even against UNC and WF this over reliance on zone coverage.....why? We have to mix it up but every critical play they made against us passing it was zone coverage. Dump offs or deep ins over the middle. If we want to get back to Miami of old....we need more DL particularly at DT but to not get anihilated by any team with a pulse and stop any QB with a pulse...mthe likes of Renner and Rettig.... all we need is better play calling. This defense is the same as last year. There are less Randy players on the team than last year. FSU got better our monster class got older but they beat us worse? What gives. You complain about Gaines. But Kirby 4 star recruit can't unseat him? Recruited by Golden......
Its more excuses for mediocrity and horrible defense. 500 yards given up to FSU....fine they are more talented 500 yards given up to UNC......what's the excuses?

 

[supacane]

@ baldychutes. My point is why can't we atleast slow down any....any team with a pulse. You guys continually saying we are outclassed by FSU.....fine. Why did UNC put up 500 yards on us? Why couldn't we adjust to WF wide splits? Do u see other teams do things to throw us off?....when do we do this? When have we schematically beaten a team? Point out the game. Its not only about talent. Its also about gameplanning and execution. Or there would be no upsets. Simple

 

[BALDYCHUTES]

Well, then your point is silly. ****, I wrote "ITS BOTH" only like 5 times my last post. Of course its about coaching and execution. But, AGAI, if your boys do not have the talent to execute, or beat the guy in the other uniform at the point of attack, you still lose. Do you not get that?

Who cares if we slow them down? Its points that count. Seriously? Any coach worth a **** will tell you points allowed is all that matters. ****, Bill Freakin Parcells said that. Look how GT did after the first qtr? Shut down. How many did NC score after the first half? How bout UF, up and down the field and they got 16. Our scheme and coaching kept those middling teams out of the endzone, it "slowed them down."

Last night UM crapped out because FSU has ELITE talent all over that team. Those other teams don't. UM could hang with the teams of average talent, but got blown out, EXPOSED by ELITE talent. You missed that? Seriously? Here is the difference. While we landed Pierre, FSU landed 5 star Mario Edwards. While we reeled in Armbrister, FSU landed 5 star Thomas. While we landed King, FSU reeled in Jernigan. While we scored Highsmith, FSU landed Joyner. Our guys can "slow down" USF, GT and UF, teams without ELITE talent (except UF on D). They did exactly that. They shut those teams down after the first qtr. Our guys cannot "slow down" FSU because FSU has ELITE talent, like Bama, Oregon, LSU and a few others. AND ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, IT IS PRETTY OBVIOUS THAT THE MORE TALENTED TEAM WINS.

And if your standard is "slowing them down" I'd suggest you change teams. Because the standard at UM it titles. And it simply is indisputable that in CFB today, only teams with ELITE talent need apply. Name a team since BYU won that has not had ELITE difference makers, at least one JUNIOR or SENIOR first rounder on their rosters. UM has none at this point (some are there but not ready to play). UM has been out recruited for the past 5 years. Expert after expert has written the same and you argue the point?

Coach D has a different system than any Cane D-Coord for decades. I'd like to see him get his boys in place and will not condemn him until he does. ****, you might be right, he might suck, but he has a system, he is sticking to it and I believe that WHEN UM gets a DE who can beat a middling LT one on one, or at least an above-average set of safeties, this D will rock. Its coming. Golden had Virginia's D playing lights out and had Temple in the top 20. What, you think they forgot how to coach? Seriously, think about what you are saying. With a little maturity, this staff took the D from 116 to 31st with our toughest offenses behind them and has them at 7-1 with Rogers and Highsmith at safety.

Wow.

@ baldychutes. My point is why can't we atleast slow down any....any team with a pulse. You guys continually saying we are outclassed by FSU.....fine. Why did UNC put up 500 yards on us? Why couldn't we adjust to WF wide splits? Do u see other teams do things to throw us off?....when do we do this? When have we schematically beaten a team? Point out the game. Its not only about talent. Its also about gameplanning and execution. Or there would be no upsets. Simple

 

[Dghustla]

@ baldychutes. My point is why can't we atleast slow down any....any team with a pulse. You guys continually saying we are outclassed by FSU.....fine. Why did UNC put up 500 yards on us? Why couldn't we adjust to WF wide splits? Do u see other teams do things to throw us off?....when do we do this? When have we schematically beaten a team? Point out the game. Its not only about talent. Its also about gameplanning and execution. Or there would be no upsets. Simple

Go back and watch wake Forrest game again. Every time there is a missed tackle on 3rd down that would have gotten us off the field take a shot... U will be drunk before we get the ball. It's called making plays

This post is just bad timing. We forced two turnovers and held the best offense we faced this year to 21 points at half. Go back and look at FSu half time scores in their other games this year.

Also u are throwing out finished products. Once again MsU and VaTech defense was trash for years. They have guys playing who have been in the system at least 3+ years. U fail to acknowledge that in your posts and write it off like it's not a huge deal. They have 3* guys who were recruited because they fit their vision. Not a throw away like James Gaines.

U want more man coverage go back and watch Nick o Leary toast Gaines in the second half.
Go back and watch Rashad Greene toast Highsmith laterally behind the line of scrimmage make a 1 handed catch and run for 30 yards.

Now once again explain to me what you want Coach D to do different?

 

[Coach Macho]

{Echo}

Listen to (read) what the man is saying about schematics. He has a point.

We do stuff on defense that makes little to no sense schematically.

Are we void of talent at some spots? Yes. But that doesn't explain offensive players being wide open and us not having a defender anywhere near him to contest. That doesn't explain Nick O'Leary standing in the flats by himself without a defender in site. (then he catches the ball and runs over Howard for 3 yards to result in a 1st down)

Talent has nothing to do with us stunting our DT's to the outside and giving up contain cause we have a slow *** DT holding the edge.

Talent has nothing to do with the fact that our LB's stand there and stare at the QB while there's a WR standing right next to them.

We slanted our DE inside and had nobody to hold contain, on Winston's right side of all places, and he just scrambled right for a first down uncontested.


Schematically there are holes all throughout this defense and anybody who doesn't see it is just being naive or doesn't know what to look for.

 

[Big Sky Cane]

Listen to (read) what the man is saying about schematics. He has a point.

We do stuff on defense that makes little to no sense schematically.

Are we void of talent at some spots? Yes. But that doesn't explain offensive players being wide open and us not having a defender anywhere near him to contest. That doesn't explain Nick O'Leary standing in the flats by himself without a defender in site. (then he catches the ball and runs over Howard for 3 yards to result in a 1st down)

Talent has nothing to do with us stunting our DT's to the outside and giving up contain cause we not have a slow *** DT holding the edge.

Talent has nothing to do with the fact that our LB's stand there and stare at the QB while there's a WR standing right next to them.

We slanted our DE inside and had nobody to hold contain, on Winston's right side of all places, and he just scrambled right for a first down uncontested.


Schematically there are holes all throughout this defense and anybody who doesn't see it is just being naive or doesn't know what to look for.

Yeah....I'm sure our Defensive scheme just leave's "zones" wide open. I ******* Guarantee our defense is "sound" schematically. Now do we have some blown gaps and coverages. Yes, we need to get that fixed. Our LB's aren't very good in coverage and lack solid instinct. For you to come on here week in and week out and blast the scheme as being "unsound" is ******* insulting.

You're a ******* nobody. You don't know the D calls, blown assignments, game plan, access to coaches film (endzone view). Do we maybe need to coach the kids up better.....yes. However, the fact you come on here acting like you're Bill Belichick every week gets old.

 

[supacane]

Its not the scheme. Its the play calling. Safe *** calls that doesn't force the other team to do things. But instead try to react after the fact. We should be contacting the RB and TE as soon as they touch the ball. Not after they catch the ball straighten up and get 5 yards running. Of course we are gonna miss tackles. You think other players are tackle dummies who stay still? You hit those mofos as soon as they catch the ball if they had someone covering them and not dropping back 20 yards.

 

[CANE4LIFE]

At some point I wonder if part of our problem is that we just dont have the right personnel to run the scheme that Golden and Coach D want to run. Maybe we made the move to almost fulltime 3-4 too soon. Chick is NOT a 3-4 DE. Pierre looked a LOT better as a Gap DT in a 4-3 last year. Porter also has not really looked very good as an NT. He hasnt been bad, but its clear that Renfrow has blown past him. We also suffer from lack of quality depth at LB. Denzel is a very good LB, but he's not a Vilma or Dan Morgan type superstar that can carry the whole D on his back. I also think all the size gain over the last year has affected his quickness. He seems to have definitely lost a step. Gaines is a good, but not great LB, and beyond that we have ZIPPO. Kirby hasnt really shown much. Armbrister is a non factor. Cornelius is simply NOT Miami calibur. Figueroa is young, and right now only a situational type player. McCord is also not ready to be a dominating LB, he mostly excels as a situational guy.

Couple that with the absolute TRAINWRECK we have at Safety, and you have a very dysfunctional defense. Our safeties were simply TERRIBLE last night in ALL aspects of the game. Run support, pass pro. AWEFUL. Highsmith was the SINGLE most important player on the field last night for EITHER team. That guy was more responsible for the suceess of EITHER team (unfortunately theirs) than any other player last night save for maybe Winston.

Our DL is average, which is an improvement over last year, but nothing to write home about. Our LB corps on the whole is average. Our Safeties are TERRIBLE. Our CBs are the only real strength of the defense, and we saw last night how teams simply avoid throwing to them and tear up the middle of the field and our soft zone with clueless LBs and Safeties.

If we are going to be a 3-4 team, then we need to recrit the right players for that system. What we have now is a bunch of guys who were meant to play in a different scheme, trying to change at the 11th hour and not being very successful. See Chick. Chick is a classic example of a guy who should have been playing at around 250-255 as a run stopping DE in a 4-3. Now he's been forced to bulk up to become a 3-4 DE or even an interior lineman. He's lost a LOT of speed, and has had NO measurable improvement in strength. So there is another guy who is simply not playing in what he is best suited for. Most of these guys are not. Porter is not. Luther Robinson is not. Pierre is not. AQM and McCord are purely situational at this point, and a HUGE signal to the offense of what we are going to do.

We should have moved over to a 3-4 more slowly when we had the right personnel, instead of forcing it with the wrong personnel.

 

[BALDYCHUTES]

OMG, people are just now realizing we might not have the right bodies??????


Unreal.

At some point I wonder if part of our problem is that we just dont have the right personnel to run the scheme that Golden and Coach D want to run. Maybe we made the move to almost fulltime 3-4 too soon. Chick is NOT a 3-4 DE. Pierre looked a LOT better as a Gap DT in a 4-3 last year. Porter also has not really looked very good as an NT. He hasnt been bad, but its clear that Renfrow has blown past him. We also suffer from lack of quality depth at LB. Denzel is a very good LB, but he's not a Vilma or Dan Morgan type superstar that can carry the whole D on his back. I also think all the size gain over the last year has affected his quickness. He seems to have definitely lost a step. Gaines is a good, but not great LB, and beyond that we have ZIPPO. Kirby hasnt really shown much. Armbrister is a non factor. Cornelius is simply NOT Miami calibur. Figueroa is young, and right now only a situational type player. McCord is also not ready to be a dominating LB, he mostly excels as a situational guy.

Couple that with the absolute TRAINWRECK we have at Safety, and you have a very dysfunctional defense. Our safeties were simply TERRIBLE last night in ALL aspects of the game. Run support, pass pro. AWEFUL. Highsmith was the SINGLE most important player on the field last night for EITHER team. That guy was more responsible for the suceess of EITHER team (unfortunately theirs) than any other player last night save for maybe Winston.

Our DL is average, which is an improvement over last year, but nothing to write home about. Our LB corps on the whole is average. Our Safeties are TERRIBLE. Our CBs are the only real strength of the defense, and we saw last night how teams simply avoid throwing to them and tear up the middle of the field and our soft zone with clueless LBs and Safeties.

If we are going to be a 3-4 team, then we need to recrit the right players for that system. What we have now is a bunch of guys who were meant to play in a different scheme, trying to change at the 11th hour and not being very successful. See Chick. Chick is a classic example of a guy who should have been playing at around 250-255 as a run stopping DE in a 4-3. Now he's been forced to bulk up to become a 3-4 DE or even an interior lineman. He's lost a LOT of speed, and has had NO measurable improvement in strength. So there is another guy who is simply not playing in what he is best suited for. Most of these guys are not. Porter is not. Luther Robinson is not. Pierre is not. AQM and McCord are purely situational at this point, and a HUGE signal to the offense of what we are going to do.

We should have moved over to a 3-4 more slowly when we had the right personnel, instead of forcing it with the wrong personnel.

 

[Coach Macho]

Listen to (read) what the man is saying about schematics. He has a point.

We do stuff on defense that makes little to no sense schematically.

Are we void of talent at some spots? Yes. But that doesn't explain offensive players being wide open and us not having a defender anywhere near him to contest. That doesn't explain Nick O'Leary standing in the flats by himself without a defender in site. (then he catches the ball and runs over Howard for 3 yards to result in a 1st down)

Talent has nothing to do with us stunting our DT's to the outside and giving up contain cause we not have a slow *** DT holding the edge.

Talent has nothing to do with the fact that our LB's stand there and stare at the QB while there's a WR standing right next to them.

We slanted our DE inside and had nobody to hold contain, on Winston's right side of all places, and he just scrambled right for a first down uncontested.


Schematically there are holes all throughout this defense and anybody who doesn't see it is just being naive or doesn't know what to look for.

Yeah....I'm sure our Defensive scheme just leave's "zones" wide open. I ******* Guarantee our defense is "sound" schematically. Now do we have some blown gaps and coverages. Yes, we need to get that fixed. Our LB's aren't very good in coverage and lack solid instinct. For you to come on here week in and week out and blast the scheme as being "unsound" is ******* insulting.

You're a ******* nobody. You don't know the D calls, blown assignments, game plan, access to coaches film (endzone view). Do we maybe need to coach the kids up better.....yes. However, the fact you come on here acting like you're Bill Belichick every week gets old.

I'm a nobody but who the **** are you? You're a blind, slapdick, couch potato fan. You don't even know WTF you're looking at on Saturdays which is why you can't debate any of the schematics. You just simply put blind faith in the coaches cause you have zero ability to decipher what we're doing on the field.

There's 2 reasons why I can talk like Belichick.

#1 - I have (atleast) some form of a resume for developing sound defenses
#2 - Slapdicks like you don't debunk anything I say. It's always general statements like "You don't know what you're talking about. These guys are D1 coaches. You're nobody."

*****, step up to the plate and come with some substance and stop being a little cheerleading hoe. Take your ******' pom-poms off and let's talk schematics.