Success of colleges running the 3-4

[jerzeycane]

umm that sh*t dont work in college....save a FEW teams...

gotta have BEAST in the fron to be able to hold up two gaps...good luck finding that...with 18 yr old freshmans having to do it...

Bama does it...but they also scour the world for prospects to do it...and they rfecruit totally different than most...and THEY still have to supplement it with juco guys....

It didnt work @ UVA with Golden and comp..thats why they aint win sh*t.

LOL @ the examples up top...Sedrick Ellis,Chris Long....those two guys are/were BEAST ...straight up grown men from jump...Chris Long not BIG??..He was 6'4 285-290 in college playing END....had the pedigree.

Its hard to recruit for the 3-4.....Theres not much guys that u can recruit as Inside backers or DE's...and your going to have to keep replenishing the nose tackle position.

In Florida u wont be able to recruit for it definately....hs linebackers down here generally weigh around 185-200 pds.

Even Bama runs a multiple look...which i think we want to do more here.

Stanford and Oregon both run hybrid schemes which utilize a ton of odd front looks.

Like anything else in college football, it either takes superior strategists like Nick Aliotti, or superior talent like what 'SC had when Pete was there.

If CP is healthy, I think we can definitely run odd looks this year.

 

[emrok]

I'm more concerned with how the 3-4 coincides with our primary recruiting ground than anything else. Stanford, Notre Dame and Alabama have no problems getting kids that will buy-in to that style of defense. In their main recruiting grounds, high schools run that defense.

In South Florida everybody runs an attacking 4-3. These guys have been beating OL with speed since they were knee high.

I'm a firm believer that your college program should reflect the football that's played locally. Every high school down here runs the spread on offense and the 4-3 one-gap on defense.

I'm not saying the 3-4 can't work at Miami, but I do believe it's gonna take longer for the kids to get acclimated when they get here because they're being asked to do something they've never done before.

Wasn't this the reason that the Miami style 4-3 was "invented" in the first place. Where they dropped their safeties down to play OLB and their line backers ended up playing DE. You can play an attacking style with that. As has already been said, when you have to 2 gap on the line, you need a guy on the nose that can anchor against the run (Jesse Williams from BAMA was very good at this) but can get skinny and push the pocket on passing downs. Most 18-20 yr old just aren't physically developed enough to play the position

On top of that you need bigger DE's that again have to set the edge (although this can depend), and are mostly asked to 2-gap again.

Many 4-3 base defences have 3-4 looks anyway...especially on passing downs

Since we ran the 4-3 in the 80s, should we start having our receivers get in 3-point stances too?
The game changes, adapt or fall behind. Remember when non-whites couldn't play?
Texas A&M beat Alabama with Spencer Nealy playing nose at 6ft3in 280lbs.

 

[miamigator]

Stanford, Bama, and UGA are multiple on defense. None of them strictly run a 3-4 defense. UF is supposed to run a 3-4 but last year you mostly had McCray (The Buck/Rushing LB) with his hand on the ground.

I think we make too much of this distinction to begin with. Every team has a base defense, but it's not like it lines up in a 4-3 or 3-4 scheme exclusively for every play of every game. In the run-up to last year's BCS title game, I wrote a feature on Alabama's C.J. Mosley, which includes the nugget (unearthed by someone else) that the Tide only use their base defense about 20 percent of the time. Mosley, arguably their most impactful linebacker, wasn't an inside linebacker in a 3-4 as much as he was the middle linebacker in a 3-3-5 (i.e., when Alabama is in nickel coverage, which it is quite frequently against three- and four-receiver sets).

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/co...s-miles-pat-fitzgerald-mailbag/#ixzz2ZMkFfhE0

 

[Southern Oz]

I'm more concerned with how the 3-4 coincides with our primary recruiting ground than anything else. Stanford, Notre Dame and Alabama have no problems getting kids that will buy-in to that style of defense. In their main recruiting grounds, high schools run that defense.

In South Florida everybody runs an attacking 4-3. These guys have been beating OL with speed since they were knee high.

I'm a firm believer that your college program should reflect the football that's played locally. Every high school down here runs the spread on offense and the 4-3 one-gap on defense.

I'm not saying the 3-4 can't work at Miami, but I do believe it's gonna take longer for the kids to get acclimated when they get here because they're being asked to do something they've never done before.

Wasn't this the reason that the Miami style 4-3 was "invented" in the first place. Where they dropped their safeties down to play OLB and their line backers ended up playing DE. You can play an attacking style with that. As has already been said, when you have to 2 gap on the line, you need a guy on the nose that can anchor against the run (Jesse Williams from BAMA was very good at this) but can get skinny and push the pocket on passing downs. Most 18-20 yr old just aren't physically developed enough to play the position

On top of that you need bigger DE's that again have to set the edge (although this can depend), and are mostly asked to 2-gap again.

Many 4-3 base defences have 3-4 looks anyway...especially on passing downs

Since we ran the 4-3 in the 80s, should we start having our receivers get in 3-point stances too?
The game changes, adapt or fall behind. Remember when non-whites couldn't play?
Texas A&M beat Alabama with Spencer Nealy playing nose at 6ft3in 280lbs.

Obviously not, but it was mentioned that the local guys, and the majority of our recruiting base are undersized and used to playing a 4-3 1 gap attacking style defence. We cant just plug them in a 3-4 as FR and SO and hope they hold up. It would be worse (if possible) than last year.

The point being if we are going to recruit So Fla. (which everyone has been banging the drum for and rightly so) there are less guys that are comfortable being in that system, or have the size for that system. This is not to say they cannot play it, or that there aren't guys that can play this system. Just difficult to fit a square peg in a round hole.

I believe you can have just as much success with a 4-3 as a 3-4, although with so much time spent in nickel situations, this is becoming less relevant. Like I said before there are many different looks that Miami use

 

[gogeta4]

Long was 275-280 in college, hardly NFL size for a 3-4 end. Ellis is a great player (and was fantastic at USC), but doesn't have NFL size for the position. The point was you don't need to have perfect size fits as long as you have good players that can play within the system.

When USC and Texas played in the NC both teams ran a 3-4. Bama and ND both ran it last year with their combined 2 losses. The 3-4 works in college just fine, there are certain sizes you target but you don't need the extremes like you do in the NFL (and not even in the NFL anymore as most teams run a 1 gap variation of it).

You can run a 3-4 in college with 6-4 280 lb ends, you can do it with a 6-0 300 lb NT, and you can do it with a 6-0 235 lb MLB.

It's just a ****ing alignment, the biggest change in defensive systems is 1 gapping and 2 gapping, both of which work at every level of football, it just depends on a coaches ideology.

The 3-3-5 has such major gap issues it's not even funny, it's an interesting pass defense alignment but generally not as good as a 4-2-5, and somehow struggles to stop both the inside run and the edge run. Michigan got ****ing destroyed running it with Rich Rod (though they also has terrible players and no strenth program).

hate to be rude to u...but there isnt an absurd amount of 6'4 280 de's running around colleges. USC scrapped thata 3-4 quickly...an ran it because their glut at LB.....at the time they had Clay Matthewss and like 6 other guys that got drafted.

 

[gogeta4]

umm that sh*t dont work in college....save a FEW teams...

gotta have BEAST in the fron to be able to hold up two gaps...good luck finding that...with 18 yr old freshmans having to do it...

Bama does it...but they also scour the world for prospects to do it...and they rfecruit totally different than most...and THEY still have to supplement it with juco guys....

It didnt work @ UVA with Golden and comp..thats why they aint win sh*t.

LOL @ the examples up top...Sedrick Ellis,Chris Long....those two guys are/were BEAST ...straight up grown men from jump...Chris Long not BIG??..He was 6'4 285-290 in college playing END....had the pedigree.

Its hard to recruit for the 3-4.....Theres not much guys that u can recruit as Inside backers or DE's...and your going to have to keep replenishing the nose tackle position.

In Florida u wont be able to recruit for it definately....hs linebackers down here generally weigh around 185-200 pds.

Even Bama runs a multiple look...which i think we want to do more here.

Yeah where on earth will Miami ever find a 3-4 NT? Ever heard of Vince Wilfork who just so happens to be the best NT in the NFL right now?

Miami can implement any scheme on defense they want with the talent they are able to pull. If Golden and Coach D were able to run that defense at Temple with no name talent then I'm pretty sure Miami will have an awesome Defense soon enough.

oh sh*t!@!!...Really we can run a succesful defense as long as we got Vince Wilfork.....OK buddy...Since he graduated high school how many dt's his caliber has ran through so.fla??

In s.fla....the type of talent we have generally wont be condusive to running a 3-4. In Broward i think only sta an western run it.....in dade doubt any succesful teams do....

golden and no frio had the best talent in their conference even if they were no name.

 

[Southern Oz]

^^^^This...but you say it much better than I do. Cheers

 

[moshated305]

We don't have the horses to run a 3-4. Too small at DT, too small at end and too small at LB. People keep bringing up the 3-4 but our recruiting doesn't scream 3-4 to me. We are all over the place. A bunch of hybrid LB/DEs but no true 3-4 DEs. No 3-4 DTs. Small LBs. You need big physical LBs in a 3-4. Our guys aren't close. Our defense and recruiting confuses the **** out me. You want to be multiple but I don't think the coaches know what they want to be on that side of the ball.

 

[Picksix]

umm that sh*t dont work in college....save a FEW teams...

gotta have BEAST in the fron to be able to hold up two gaps...good luck finding that...with 18 yr old freshmans having to do it...

Bama does it...but they also scour the world for prospects to do it...and they rfecruit totally different than most...and THEY still have to supplement it with juco guys....

It didnt work @ UVA with Golden and comp..thats why they aint win sh*t.

LOL @ the examples up top...Sedrick Ellis,Chris Long....those two guys are/were BEAST ...straight up grown men from jump...Chris Long not BIG??..He was 6'4 285-290 in college playing END....had the pedigree.

Its hard to recruit for the 3-4.....Theres not much guys that u can recruit as Inside backers or DE's...and your going to have to keep replenishing the nose tackle position.

In Florida u wont be able to recruit for it definately....hs linebackers down here generally weigh around 185-200 pds.

Even Bama runs a multiple look...which i think we want to do more here.

Yeah where on earth will Miami ever find a 3-4 NT? Ever heard of Vince Wilfork who just so happens to be the best NT in the NFL right now?

Miami can implement any scheme on defense they want with the talent they are able to pull. If Golden and Coach D were able to run that defense at Temple with no name talent then I'm pretty sure Miami will have an awesome Defense soon enough.

oh sh*t!@!!...Really we can run a succesful defense as long as we got Vince Wilfork.....OK buddy...Since he graduated high school how many dt's his caliber has ran through so.fla??

In s.fla....the type of talent we have generally wont be condusive to running a 3-4. In Broward i think only sta an western run it.....in dade doubt any succesful teams do....

golden and no frio had the best talent in their conference even if they were no name.

Ok buddy!!! Yeah Wilfork is the only beast DT to ever come through the program. And all of them have come from South FL too.

Wilfork just happens to be the last stud due to crapy coaching and development ever since. Miami has always recruited well on a National level. This BS theory that everybody must be from South FL is absurd.

Golden and Coach D got this. Save your know it all garbage for the village idiots.

 

[Coach Macho]

Everybody we recruit doesn't have to be from South FLA...but why would you run a scheme that...

A) Is harder to play in


B) Is harder to find players for

and...

C) The kids in your primary recruiting ground aren't familiar with

 

[gogeta4]

Everybody we recruit doesn't have to be from South FLA...but why would you run a scheme that...

A) Is harder to play in


B) Is harder to find players for

and...

C) The kids in your primary recruiting ground aren't familiar with

because its cool..and Bama and ND runs it..

Oh we could run it.....but our recruiting pool from which we have a large chance of grabbing kids dont produce these types....

Our players look like chicken with their head cut off running our simple multiple front d. Add to it ......we dont have masterminds of defense like Saban and what they got at ND. **** i'm not sold on No Frio @ all to be honest.....big year for him in my eyes.

Look @ how Al Groh is getting bounced around trying to run his 3-4 schemes in the acc.....and thats who No Frio and Golden learned from...i'm cool with being multiple...throwing the 3-4 looks along with the 4-3....because we seem to have a few of the parts...we have recruited a few hybrid ends/lb's....but on the dline...we havent reallly flat out got those ends...Jelani Hamilton maybe a guy that could grow into one of those ends...Pierre would be and end in the 3-4...Chick....

 

[252cane]

Look guys ag stated when he arrived as hc that he wanted to be multiple on d. It has already been said so far they have been using more 3-4 looks this summer with mccord and cain as the rush lbs but they have been still using the 4-3. 4-3 will continue to be base d but he is recruiting guys who can play 1 or both schemes. Examples: grace(6'1 210) 4-3 olb, mccord(6'3 236),figs(6'3 231),smith(6'3 210) 4-3 or 3-4 olb, hamilton(who ag said is 285 now) 4-3 or 3-4 de, valentine(6'4 310) 4-3 dt, juco johnson(6'3 295) 4-3 dt, juco pelon(6'4 275) 4-3 or 3-4 de, stuckey(6'3 310 run stuffer) 4-3 dt or 3-4 nt. Sorry for the length just trying to show that we will be using both schemes.

 

[killa1storm]

there are different kinds of 3-4. for example, oregon and uga off the top of my head run a 1-gap 3-4. oregon in particular slants and stunts their d-line and run out of a 3-3-5 look a lot where they bring an extra linebacker so while they're in 3-4 formation it's really an attacking 4-3 conceptually.

i do agree that it's tough to run it full-time though, kids simply aren't developed enough to run it. i also think it goes away from the strength of the recruiting base miami and the other florida schools have. muschamp is a 3-4 guy as well but has had to run 4-3 almost exclusively in his time at uf while mixing in some 3-4 elements on 3rd down. its just hard to find those 265-270 lb. stack ends and a 3-4 nose consistently each year. bama runs it more than most and have had to supplement their front 7 with a lot of juco guys and even they don't run 3-4 50% of the time.

 

[killa1storm]

Everybody we recruit doesn't have to be from South FLA...but why would you run a scheme that...

A) Is harder to play in


B) Is harder to find players for

and...

C) The kids in your primary recruiting ground aren't familiar with

nice point, and i have been screaming this from the mountain tops with regard to uf's offense. i feel the same is true for miami and fsu as well. why aren't the big 3 running a spread offense? can you imagine if either of them had an offense like oregon's? i mean the state of florida produces elite receivers and backs yearly, yet neither school really utilizes those positions as much as they could imo. it is also much easier to find a qb with some wheels who can make 1, maybe 2 reads and go than it is to find a qb who can sit in the pocket and pick apart a defense. ****, only about 10 in the nfl can do it at a high level, yet college coaches expect college kids with nowhere near the same skills to be able to do the same. what's worse is that when there is a kid like that, every major school in the country is recruiting him so your comp to sign him is insanely high. meanwhile, 6 ft. qb's with wheels are all over the country in spades, but they usually get moved to other positions. unrelated rant but sort of fits with what you're saying.

 

[dg151]

Long was 275-280 in college, hardly NFL size for a 3-4 end. Ellis is a great player (and was fantastic at USC), but doesn't have NFL size for the position. The point was you don't need to have perfect size fits as long as you have good players that can play within the system.

When USC and Texas played in the NC both teams ran a 3-4. Bama and ND both ran it last year with their combined 2 losses. The 3-4 works in college just fine, there are certain sizes you target but you don't need the extremes like you do in the NFL (and not even in the NFL anymore as most teams run a 1 gap variation of it).

You can run a 3-4 in college with 6-4 280 lb ends, you can do it with a 6-0 300 lb NT, and you can do it with a 6-0 235 lb MLB.

It's just a ****ing alignment, the biggest change in defensive systems is 1 gapping and 2 gapping, both of which work at every level of football, it just depends on a coaches ideology.

The 3-3-5 has such major gap issues it's not even funny, it's an interesting pass defense alignment but generally not as good as a 4-2-5, and somehow struggles to stop both the inside run and the edge run. Michigan got ****ing destroyed running it with Rich Rod (though they also has terrible players and no strenth program).

hate to be rude to u...but there isnt an absurd amount of 6'4 280 de's running around colleges. USC scrapped thata 3-4 quickly...an ran it because their glut at LB.....at the time they had Clay Matthewss and like 6 other guys that got drafted.

Olsen Pierre, Jalen Grimble, Jelani Hamilton, Jacoby Briscoe, Ufomba Kamalu, Julio Derosier are all 3-4 end prospects. Bostwick was one too, and Chick can (and has) play it. There aren't many 6-4 280 ends, because those guys generally play DT, where they will also play here in certain sets. Darius Smith, Corey King, Earl Moore, DeQuan Ivery, Courtel Jenkins are all NT prospects. Valentine and Stuckey can play nose and strong side end (I actually think Valentine is going to be a superstar NT here). The best NT prospect for the draft next year is from Florida and a former Cane commit. We can clearly recruit for the 3-4 at Miami, we're doing it already, we're running it already. It's not an exclusive set or even a primary one, but it's something we have run and will continue to do so more. As for teams in South Florida not running it and young guys not being able to play early, young players shouldn't be playing early! If we're running freshmen and sophomores out there every year as starters we're going to be ****ed. Having a few playing 20 plays a game in a reserve role is fine, especially because only a few of those will be in the base 3-4 2 gap, those hybrid ends and young DTs and young backers will play in certain situations where physical development isn't the biggest issue.

When Golden first got hired I went back and watched a few Temple games from the previous season to see what the team was like, and Temple's defense was literally the most versatile from an alignment stand point that I've seen in college. The concepts generally aren't crazy or varied, but there was one drive where they came out in a different set 4 straight plays. We're going to run multiple sets with different cover schemes. I guess because of how bad the defense was last year people just want to hate and tear down anything D'Onfrio does, but what they're building and what we're recruiting for, clearly shows we're going to have an extremely versatile defense, which is the way you have to play in football today.

This wasn't addressed specifically at you or anyone, I just didn't feel like quoting every post.

 

[TwoZero]

dg151 went ham

i'll be looking forward to more of your posts

 

[rok]

dg151 went ham

i'll be looking forward to more of your posts

He appears to know what he's talking about

 

[Picksix]

Everybody we recruit doesn't have to be from South FLA...but why would you run a scheme that...

A) Is harder to play in


B) Is harder to find players for

and...

C) The kids in your primary recruiting ground aren't familiar with

A) Miami used to pride itself in putting in more work than the competition. They would work so hard in fact that "come Saturday the game was easy". Miami was also NFL U and a hybrid defense is what the NFL is running so the players better learn it now. Why not get a jump on it early and get it down? Loser mentality IMO

B) Miami is a National brand and when they were on top it was because they were recruiting well Nationally. This recruiting South Fl Idea is a ******* myth conjured up by the village idiots. These naysaying doubters sound like the same paint chip eaters who bashed Butch Davis while he was building the best CFB team ever for its time. These people have zero vision or patience. They're an instant gratification bunch who want it now like little children or *******.

C) The kids in our primary recruiting ground are supposed to be all world but yet they're not good enough to learn a big boy scheme? That's just retarded! So the best of the best can't be taught more complicated schemes? SMGDH

Thank god Golden is calling the shots!