Real talk...Evaluations

[Larry]

I agree with you totally Larry but I'm not sure the staff does, I think (at least it appears) that the staff has gotten tired, for this year at least, of the sofl kids and their recruiting drama and have opted for oos state studs like sandland, AQM, dobard, Olsen etc.

This is the problem...there are plenty of SoFla recruits (as illustrated here) that don't come with the drama.

Are those players ready to play tomorrow like an Alex Collins? No. Will they develop by their third, fourth, fifth year? Without question...yes.

Not SoFla related, but similarly...

We recruited Danny Dillard last year...the runner before Danny Dillard at Venice HS was Dri Archer...small as ****, recruited to play at Kent State...he just ran for 1400 yards and is an NFL prospect for the 2014 Draft. We write off guys really early and look for players to contribute right away...we need to get back to player development.

Back to SoFla related...sure, Deon Bush is a stud and can play from Day 1...Jonathan Cyprien and Kemal Ishmael developed into first team All-Conference players and will be playing on Sundays...we heard this same story with the likes of Louis Delmas and Darius Butler and Josh Robinson before them...it just happens way too much for us to have a staff that ignores it...and I'm not saying this staff is ignoring them, but perhaps they put too many eggs in one basket this year and history has proven you're silly if you do so, because SoFla has a guy that will often be just as good right down the road.

You are inferring that the current staff is doing these things. He's had virtually signed one class that he's had a chance to follow for over a year. This hear will be year two. How bout you wait until the class gets signed tomorrow before going all dramatic.

Last years class has plenty of guys that fit your description and they've panned out quite nicely.

Third year recruiting class is VERY telling...look at successful coaches and look at failed coaches...look at their third recruiting class and you will see a correlation.

And, to be fair, Miami went 7-5 last year.

 

[Big Sky Cane]

I'd argue it's his second full class.

On a side note, those who will be judging this class tomorrow are premature ejaculators. We won't have a good idea on this class till the fall at the earliest and more than likely in 2014 or 2015 or 16 if he's following your philosophy about "developing" talent.

NFL draft grades all over again.......meaningless.

 

[Larry]

I'd argue it's his second full class.

Then its EVERYONE's second full class and the point still stands.

 

[CANE1775]

I agree with larry.

 

[wushah]

Of the two, the evaluation really is more key because it inherently includes potential player development. That's always been the case. The right guys develop better. Obvious but true.

 

[Gamineal]

Golden and this staff is still coaching and recruiting with one arm behind their backs...NCAA and the past 8+ years.

Local HS coaches are still feeling AG out and he is non sense guy with a plan...no local guy will strong arm him...what you dont want is a university coach upset at a HS coach or staff....that is a ton worse then the other way around.

Great post...Thank you sir!! breath of fresh air

 

[bbcane]

agree, seems like the staff does also. judjing from history. 26 commits from florida last year



Name
Pos
Location
Ht
Wt
40
Stars
Rivals Rating
Committed
Videos
Signed Letter of Intent
Jawand Blue
LB
Boca Raton, FL
West Boca Raton
6'0"
215
3 stars
5.7
2/1/12
5 videos
Jacoby Briscoe
DT
Lafayette, LA
Carencro
6'4"
290
3 stars
5.6
1/6/12
Deon Bush
DB
Miami, FL
Columbus
6'1"
185
4.4
4 stars
5.9
1/7/12
9 videos
Jontavious Carter
WR
Cordele, GA
Crisp County
6'4"
202
4.6
3 stars
5.6
3/10/11
Antonio Crawford
DB
Tampa, FL
Plant
5'11"
180
4.4
3 stars
5.6
1/29/12
Gray Crow
QB
Clearwater, FL
Countryside
6'3"
220
3 stars
5.6
2/16/11
5 videos
Vernon Davis
DB
Miami, FL
Coral Reef
5'10"
175
4.5
3 stars
5.6
6/12/11
4 videos
Preston Dewey
QB
Austin, TX
St. Andrew's Episcopal School
6'3"
205
4.7
3 stars
5.6
6/3/11
7 videos
Danny Dillard
RB
Venice, FL
Venice
6'2"
205
3 stars
5.7
11/6/11
2 videos
Nate Dortch
DB
Fort Myers, FL
South Fort Myers
5'11"
168
3 stars
5.5
8/2/11
1 video
Ereck Flowers
OL
Miami, FL
Miami Norland
6'6"
315
4 stars
5.8
5/28/11
6 videos
Taylor Gadbois
OL
Fork Union, VA
Fork Union Military Academy
6'8"
300
3 stars
5.7
9/7/11
Ladarius Gunter
DB
Fort Scott, KS
Fort Scott C.C.
6'2"
200
4.4
3 stars
5.5
12/4/11
Jelani Hamilton
DE
Fort Lauderdale, FL
St. Thomas Aquinas
6'5"
250
4 stars
5.9
6/21/11
5 videos
Dwayne Hoilett
DE
Vero Beach, FL
Vero Beach
6'3"
214
3 stars
5.7
6/16/11
3 videos
Larry Hope
DB
Miami, FL
American
5'11"
165
3 stars
5.6
6/3/11
2 videos
Tracy Howard
DB
Miramar, FL
Miramar
5'11"
175
5 stars
6.1
15 videos
Daniel Isidora
OL
Weston, FL
Cypress Bay
6'3"
330
3 stars
5.7
11/29/11
2 videos
Dequan Ivery
DT
Lake City, FL
Columbia
6'1"
310
3 stars
5.5
2/1/12
Angelo Jean-Louis
ATH
Wellington, FL
Palm Beach Central
6'0"
185
4 stars
5.8
4/30/11
4 videos
Rayshawn Jenkins
DB
St. Petersburg, FL
Admiral Farragut Academy
6'2"
185
4.6
3 stars
5.7
11/14/11
1 video
Randy Johnson
RB
Miami, FL
Miami Norland
5'9"
180
4.5
5 stars
6.1
9/20/10
11 videos
D'Mauri Jones
WR
Leesburg, FL
Leesburg
6'4"
190
3 stars
5.6
6/21/11
1 video
Raphael Kirby
LB
Stone Mountain, GA
Stephenson
6'0"
208
4 stars
5.9
5/17/11
10 videos
Malcolm Lewis
WR
Miramar, FL
Miramar
5'10"
170
4 stars
5.8
11/17/11
8 videos
Robert Lockhart
WR
Fork Union, VA
Fork Union Military Academy
6'2"
180
4 stars
5.8
1/7/12
1 video
Tyriq McCord
DE
Tampa, FL
Jefferson
6'3"
222
4.8
4 stars
5.9
1/7/12
8 videos
Earl Moore
DT
Tampa, FL
Hillsborough
6'1"
280
3 stars
5.7
8/17/11
3 videos
Jake O'Donnell
DE
Doylestown, PA
Central Bucks East
6'6"
233
4.6
3 stars
5.5
6/12/11
2 videos
Gabriel Terry
DE
Wellington, FL
Palm Beach Central
6'3"
210
3 stars
5.6
11/24/11
1 video
David Thompson
QB
Miami, FL
Westminster Christian
6'2"
195
3 stars
5.6
2/17/11
1 video
Herb Waters
WR
Homestead, FL
Homestead
6'1"
170
3 stars
5.7
7/11/11
2 videos
Josh Witt
LB
Weston, FL
Cypress Bay
6'2"
208
3 stars
5.5
7/1/11
3 videos

 

[Ethnicsands]

Regardless of what happens tomorrow...it just needs to be said...EVALUATIONS and subsequently PLAYER DEVELOPMENT are/is what is going to bring this University back out of the dark ages.

I have been harping on this point for a decade! All else aside, it's about evaluations. I actually think 'development' is an excuse most of the time. People use it as a plug number. If things look bad, kids didn't develop. If they look good, they developed. Yet most of that is not development, but coaching (schemes, game plans, play calling) and S&C. "Development" was said to suck under Coker and Randy, but still kids not only got through to the NFL but played well there. If they didn't 'develop', then how did they get to the NFL?

Anyhow, that's an aside. It is and has always been about evaluations.

Butch and JJ could see which kids had what it takes inside to make themselves into players. It's about way more than sparq scores. It's about determination, competitiveness, etc. Some people know what to look for, others don't.

 

[Big Sky Cane]

I'm obviously not disagreeing with the premise of Larry's post, I agree. I just think they are already doing this and the proof is in the pudding.

 

[Barboni]

Crazy that you can just keep adding names to that list.: Jeff Scott , Tony Grimes, Jermaine Brooks, Jaamal Berry (Wasn't cleared till almost mid season, and was still all-conference).

No excuse for the local team to not have an in-depth evaluation on most SFL prospects.

 

[Larry]

Regardless of what happens tomorrow...it just needs to be said...EVALUATIONS and subsequently PLAYER DEVELOPMENT are/is what is going to bring this University back out of the dark ages.

I have been harping on this point for a decade! All else aside, it's about evaluations. I actually think 'development' is an excuse most of the time. People use it as a plug number. If things look bad, kids didn't develop. If they look good, they developed. Yet most of that is not development, but coaching (schemes, game plans, play calling) and S&C. "Development" was said to suck under Coker and Randy, but still kids not only got through to the NFL but played well there. If they didn't 'develop', then how did they get to the NFL?

Anyhow, that's an aside. It is and has always been about evaluations.

Butch and JJ could see which kids had what it takes inside to make themselves into players. It's about way more than sparq scores. It's about determination, competitiveness, etc. Some people know what to look for, others don't.

I think when you mention Coker and Shannon...they are the definition of guys that couldn't develop the guys they had...the good evaluations they DID have (and to be fair, they struggled here, but they had some hits), they couldn't get the very best out of them. Calais Campbell, Sam Shields, Jon Beason, Colin McCarthy...they are good players and good evals...but the staff just didn't develop them to their fullest potential while at Miami.

 

[Larry]

I'm obviously not disagreeing with the premise of Larry's post, I agree. I just think they are already doing this and the proof is in the pudding.

You could have said the same thing after Randy's first full class, and the end result was it was extremely far from the truth.

 

[CANE4LIFE]

Agree with a lot of this, but you have to remember that our best teams always had a mix of kids from So Fla and OOS. Moreover, Golden has been fighting with one hand tied behind his back. I think its finally become evident this year that there are a lot of local coaches, "Randy's Boys" that are still butthurt in the Overtown community that Randy was fired, and are doing all they can to make Golden's job that much harder. Weve been mediocre for almost a decade, and then the NCAA debacle has been used against us brutally to scare kids, and for all practical purposes it appeared we were going to self impose some scholie reductions this year and take a small class, which means we didnt offer as many kids early on as other programs did, which has made things harder on us too.

And lets not forget the biggest Elephant in the living room when it comes to SoFla recruiting, the schools and grades issues. How many kids have we lost out on the last decade for grades? Just look at AJL this year. Every year the grades issue costs us in SoFla. And lets face it, many of these kids who often "get away" only do so because they cant get into UM, and have to go to places like WVU and UL, and people whine and scream that we lost some great local kids, but the truth is they couldnt come because they didnt have the grades.

So saying that SoFla has great talent is great, but its an oversimplification... there are many other issues than just saying, "the talent is here, we just need to bring it in".

 

[wushah]

Regardless of what happens tomorrow...it just needs to be said...EVALUATIONS and subsequently PLAYER DEVELOPMENT are/is what is going to bring this University back out of the dark ages.

I have been harping on this point for a decade! All else aside, it's about evaluations. I actually think 'development' is an excuse most of the time. People use it as a plug number. If things look bad, kids didn't develop. If they look good, they developed. Yet most of that is not development, but coaching (schemes, game plans, play calling) and S&C. "Development" was said to suck under Coker and Randy, but still kids not only got through to the NFL but played well there. If they didn't 'develop', then how did they get to the NFL?

Anyhow, that's an aside. It is and has always been about evaluations.

Butch and JJ could see which kids had what it takes inside to make themselves into players. It's about way more than sparq scores. It's about determination, competitiveness, etc. Some people know what to look for, others don't.

E,

We've been talking about this for as long as I can remember. It hasn't changed and will never change.

 

[bbcane]

I'm obviously not disagreeing with the premise of Larry's post, I agree. I just think they are already doing this and the proof is in the pudding.

You could have said the same thing after Randy's first full class, and the end result was it was extremely far from the truth.

yea the first 2 classes were heavy fla. i think they just put all their eggs in 6 or 7 local prospects that they thought they would get. which like you say is probably a no no. but hindsight is always 20 20. if they landed who they thought we are handing out crowns.
golden even said we are gonna wait on s fla kids to commit, we beleave they are worth the wait, and then the s fla kids burn him.
i will say this. I bet that is the last time he uses that stategy

 

[dg151]

Jose Jose actually declared for the draft. He was ok at UCF last year but will be lucky to get drafted.

Definitely agree with the original post, there's obviously talent everywhere in the state. And I think it's something that you saw in last year's class. There were a ton of those eval guys that look like they will develop down the line. With this class though, with how small it was and how the needs worked out, immediate contributors were needed more so than guys that they can develop. RB needed an Alex Collins type who could contribute and there wasn't room for a 2nd back really (until late with Edwards, who really REALLY needs to be in this class). WR is another where it's a top guy or nothing.

It's a lot harder in small classes, when a lot of the top targets are deciding late, to get those eval type guys in the class. And with the eval types we seemed to go OOS. DE and OL in state talent really weren't good this year.

As far as the third year thing, every other third year coach that was recruiting that class for 2 years, wasn't doing it with the NCAA raining on them the entire time.

And even with that, the staff brought in (so far), a top QB, a top JUCO TE, a top OOS DE (assuming he sticks), and 2 top DBs. I know there is a lot of doom and gloom going around right now, but adding Olsen, Beau, AQM, Burns and Carter (before whatever we get tomorrow), to the roster that is already here (20 starters coming back, Duke frakking Johnson, etc), is freaking huge. If we add Edwards, Grace, a DT and a surprise tomorrow, this is a **** good class for what it is. A complimentary piece to 2012 and 2014. There is a TON of talent on this team, not bringing in a few guys isn't going to destroy this team. As Larry pointed out, there's talent EVERYWHERE, find the next guy. Enough hyperbole about every single kid's action, take what we get tomorrow add it to what we have, trust the evals and the development, and get ready for next season. Everyone trusts Al until one guy chooses another school and now the program is ruined forever.

This post took a big of a tangent, but I think Larry knows me from NFLDC/SWDC (pretty sure that's you, if not aaaaawkward) so hopefully he won't mind.

 

[Ethnicsands]

Regardless of what happens tomorrow...it just needs to be said...EVALUATIONS and subsequently PLAYER DEVELOPMENT are/is what is going to bring this University back out of the dark ages.

I have been harping on this point for a decade! All else aside, it's about evaluations. I actually think 'development' is an excuse most of the time. People use it as a plug number. If things look bad, kids didn't develop. If they look good, they developed. Yet most of that is not development, but coaching (schemes, game plans, play calling) and S&C. "Development" was said to suck under Coker and Randy, but still kids not only got through to the NFL but played well there. If they didn't 'develop', then how did they get to the NFL?

Anyhow, that's an aside. It is and has always been about evaluations.

Butch and JJ could see which kids had what it takes inside to make themselves into players. It's about way more than sparq scores. It's about determination, competitiveness, etc. Some people know what to look for, others don't.

I think when you mention Coker and Shannon...they are the definition of guys that couldn't develop the guys they had...the good evaluations they DID have (and to be fair, they struggled here, but they had some hits), they couldn't get the very best out of them. Calais Campbell, Sam Shields, Jon Beason, Colin McCarthy...they are good players and good evals...but the staff just didn't develop them to their fullest potential while at Miami.

I mostly disagree. I'm not saying they were good at development. But the reason people say they weren't has very little to do with actual development. Those guys ran **** programs. The kids weren't put in positions to make plays. So of course they didn't look 'developed' when you judged by games. But schemes, game planning, play calling and S&C all played into that. And it's hard for one kid to look developed if the whole squad is underprepared. Beason and McCarthy were solid at UM, just stuck in crappy schemes on crappy teams with crappy coaching and CC had some injuries. They both played well early in their NFL careers, which should tell you that they were 'developed.' Campbell, similarly. He looked great as a sophmore, actually. If he looked worse thereafter, that wasn't development so much as the other topics I've mentioned. And Shields, they just had him at the wrong position. If anything, he developed really well in a short time once he switched to DB, or he wouldn't be in the NFL today. Ditto Graham. One year at UM and he was ready for the NFL.

It wasn't 'development' so much as it was bad evals, bad S&C, bad schemes, bad game plans, bad play calling, bad execution and bad motivation.

 

[Larry]

Regardless of what happens tomorrow...it just needs to be said...EVALUATIONS and subsequently PLAYER DEVELOPMENT are/is what is going to bring this University back out of the dark ages.

I have been harping on this point for a decade! All else aside, it's about evaluations. I actually think 'development' is an excuse most of the time. People use it as a plug number. If things look bad, kids didn't develop. If they look good, they developed. Yet most of that is not development, but coaching (schemes, game plans, play calling) and S&C. "Development" was said to suck under Coker and Randy, but still kids not only got through to the NFL but played well there. If they didn't 'develop', then how did they get to the NFL?

Anyhow, that's an aside. It is and has always been about evaluations.

Butch and JJ could see which kids had what it takes inside to make themselves into players. It's about way more than sparq scores. It's about determination, competitiveness, etc. Some people know what to look for, others don't.

I think when you mention Coker and Shannon...they are the definition of guys that couldn't develop the guys they had...the good evaluations they DID have (and to be fair, they struggled here, but they had some hits), they couldn't get the very best out of them. Calais Campbell, Sam Shields, Jon Beason, Colin McCarthy...they are good players and good evals...but the staff just didn't develop them to their fullest potential while at Miami.

I mostly disagree. I'm not saying they were good at development. But the reason people say they weren't has very little to do with actual development. Those guys ran **** programs. The kids weren't put in positions to make plays. So of course they didn't look 'developed' when you judged by games. But schemes, game planning, play calling and S&C all played into that. And it's hard for one kid to look developed if the whole squad is underprepared. Beason and McCarthy were solid at UM, just stuck in crappy schemes on crappy teams with crappy coaching and CC had some injuries. They both played well early in their NFL careers, which should tell you that they were 'developed.' Campbell, similarly. He looked great as a sophmore, actually. If he looked worse thereafter, that wasn't development so much as the other topics I've mentioned. And Shields, they just had him at the wrong position. If anything, he developed really well in a short time once he switched to DB, or he wouldn't be in the NFL today. Ditto Graham. One year at UM and he was ready for the NFL.

It wasn't 'development' so much as it was bad evals, bad S&C, bad schemes, bad game plans, bad play calling, bad execution and bad motivation.

Everything you said in regards to scheme, S+C, coaching, etc is apart of development.

Calais Campbell barely lifted weights while he was here and was extremely behind the curve from a technique standpoint as a second round pick (its why he wasn't a first round pick). Sam Shields couldn't read a playbook. Antonio Dixon was taught zero technique. We could list them all day. But, those squads under Coker and Shannon had units that were extremely under developed. Under Shannon, Clint Hurtt was useless as a coach and the talent we had on the DL was at a disadvantage and were light years behind in development of technique. Under Coker, quarterback development was stunted by having a revolving door of coaches...perhaps, you can't make chicken salad out of chicken ****, but the lack of coaching didn't help. Early in Mike Barrow's tenure at Miami, LBs werent developing (he's gotten better, to be fair). Under Marquis Mosley, we saw players like Kayne Farquharson (a player in need of good coaching, fast), do nothing, Hankerson didn't develop at all, Jenkins, Leggett, etc...no development.

There were many other issues with those staffs, but #1 in my opinion was evaluations...and development. Miami had plenty of good players at the time, but they never developed them. Other aspects come on tier two, IMO. They were staffs that generally didn't know what a good player looked like and when they did get one, they couldn't develop them to the level they should.

You hear stories of how Antonio Dixon goes from undraftable to a guy teams would have drafted with just a WEEK of pro coaching. Sam Shields goes from not able to read a playbook to immediate contributor to eventually a Super Bowl team in about a month. You can't make that **** up.

 

[Houtxcane]

I agree with you totally Larry but I'm not sure the staff does, I think (at least it appears) that the staff has gotten tired, for this year at least, of the sofl kids and their recruiting drama and have opted for oos state studs like sandland, AQM, dobard, Olsen etc.

This is the problem...there are plenty of SoFla recruits (as illustrated here) that don't come with the drama.

Are those players ready to play tomorrow like an Alex Collins? No. Will they develop by their third, fourth, fifth year? Without question...yes.

Not SoFla related, but similarly...

We recruited Danny Dillard last year...the runner before Danny Dillard at Venice HS was Dri Archer...small as ****, recruited to play at Kent State...he just ran for 1400 yards and is an NFL prospect for the 2014 Draft. We write off guys really early and look for players to contribute right away...we need to get back to player development.

Back to SoFla related...sure, Deon Bush is a stud and can play from Day 1...Jonathan Cyprien and Kemal Ishmael developed into first team All-Conference players and will be playing on Sundays...we heard this same story with the likes of Louis Delmas and Darius Butler and Josh Robinson before them...it just happens way too much for us to have a staff that ignores it...and I'm not saying this staff is ignoring them, but perhaps they put too many eggs in one basket this year and history has proven you're silly if you do so, because SoFla has a guy that will often be just as good right down the road.

I agree with your post on player development. However, you also have to look from Golden's point of view. The reality for him (as a CEO) is more likely that he feels he has to win a significant number of games this year (year 3) to keep "Miami fans" interested and the program moving forward. Looking at his recruitment this year, he has put equal emphasis on immediate impact players and long-term development projects. I think he is betting his future on this year. Fingers crossed as we need it.

 

[NVA CANE]

Cot **** this is a great thread. Knowledgable people talking football. Gotta love it.