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(Re)Building the Roster (long)

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roly2324 said:
And I think starting this year we are seeing Manny address 1-4....

Point #5 (if they miss or not) is TBD. The coaches need to evaluate and make good calls on those 3 stars. If Im Manny just hire @Lance Roffers and up your chances of success.
Click to expand...

I've reread #5 a couple of times. If he means never miss an evaluation, then that's a tall order. I don't think JJ or Butch were able to pull that off.

But if means never miss a position group, to make sure we're covered in all areas (particularly QB and DT), I agree with him and it's do-able. We have to get back to balanced recruiting class so that every year there isn't a mad scramble.
 
NorthEastCane said:
I've reread #5 a couple of times. If he means never miss an evaluation, then that's a tall order. I don't think JJ or Butch were able to pull that off.

But if means never miss a position group, to make sure we're covered in all areas (particularly QB and DT), I agree with him and it's do-able. We have to get back to balanced recruiting class so that every year there isn't a mad scramble.
Click to expand...

Yes, I meant never miss a position group in terms of numbers, not in terms of "evaluate every player perfectly." Every year, a position should have at least one player taken, and if not, there should be a good reason for not doing so (i.e., you don't take a defensive back because you took six the year before, or you don't take a QB because you took two the year before, etc.).

It's impossible never to miss an evaluation. Clemson is the perfect example of that - out of the four 5-star, can't miss kids that they signed over the period I highlighted, only one of them became an All-American and first round draft pick.
 
Katzenboyer said:
I've been meaning to make this thread for awhile, but haven't had time. Now that I've got a moment (and I touched on this briefly in another thread), I wanted to discuss the model Manny needs to pursue in order to return the Canes to dynasty status.

When the topic of South Florida five-stars come up, two common threads emerge: (1) bags; and (2) Clemson, UGA and Bama. There's nothing we can do about #1, and that's a topic for another thread.

A. The Models

"Success Leaves Clues."

When trying to pick a course in terms of building the roster, I think there are three truly elite schools doing it at a level no one else is at the moment: Alabama, UGA, and Clemson. The SEC teams and the ACC team, in my view, have taken different paths to building the rosters they currently possess. I'll refer to those as the "Bama/UGA" model and the "Clemson" model.

Alabama (and, to some extent, UGA) are outliers. There's no situation in which we build the roster the way Saban can on a year-to-year basis. He's going to go down as the greatest coach in NCAA history, and with that comes special benefits (plus, bags). And UGA is certainly a force on the trail right now, but quite a bit of that has been helped by the fact that Kirby has the Bama "shine" on him, and that the last three years have seen the state of Georgia produce an ungodly amount of high school talent that all grew up rooting for the Bulldogs.* That could continue, but again - I don't think Miami's way forward is pursuing the Bama/UGA model.

*in the 2020 class, the state of Georgia has 9 players ranked in the Rivals Top 100. In 2019, that number was 11 and 10 players were so ranked in 2018. (Just as a note for comparison, Florida -- which had 24 players ranked in the Rivals 100 in 2018 -- has 11 million more people living in the state).

So where do we go from here? I give you, the "Clemson" Model.

B. The Clemson Model - Miami's Best Bet

Clemson right now is destroying it on the recruiting trail. In their last three classes (2017-2019) they've signed 11 five-star players. They are set to add the #1 class this year by a gigantic margin -- currently, they have 5 five-stars committed, and some analysts have them adding as many as five more such players. Oh, and they've won 2 out of the last 3 nattys.

But it wasn't always like this. When Dabo became coach in 2008, he inherited a team that had gone 9-4, 8-5, 8-4 and 6-5 in the previous four seasons. Not a juggernaut by any means. And recruiting wise, beginning in 2010 -- Swinney's first full class -- through 2013, he signed classes ranked #19, #8, #14, and #14. Not exactly stellar.

In fact, his next class - signed in February of 2015 - was not exactly the most elite, either. It ranked #14, according to Rivals. But that class became so impactful because it included Deshaun Watson, who I think is the player who really brought Clemson to the next level and allowed it to step into the juggernaut role it currently posses.

I combed through each of the classes leading to Watson's ultimate signing to determine what Clemson did right, and what Miami might replicate. Here's what I found:
  1. Dabo's first two classes were huge. He signed a 24-player class in 2010, and a 29-player class in 2011.
  2. Depth mattered more than ranking. For every class signed by Clemson 2010 - 2014, players ranked three-stars or lower always made up a majority of the class (see the first chart below).
  3. Clemson rarely missed on a position. With one exception (see the second chart below), Clemson addressed every position for the first four years of Swinney's tenure.
  4. Class rankings didn't matter. The classes, as seen below, set the stage for a program that has yet to have less than a double-digit win season since 2011. The depth built in these classes are a big reason why.
  5. Swinney prioritized the line.
  6. While Clemson did get its share of five-stars in this time period, they all came in one year - 2011. Out of those four five-star players, only one turned into a true superstar - Sammy Watkins. Out of the other three, one transferred (Mike Bellamy) and two others were solid, albeit unspectacular contributors to their respective teams (Stephone Anthony and Tony Steward).
Number of Signees by Star Ranking

Star Ranking​
2010 Class​
2011 Class​
2012 Class​
2013 Class​
Three Star or Lower​
15​
19​
11​
13​
Four Star​
9​
6​
9​
10​
Five Star​
0​
4​
0​
0​

Number of Signees by Position

Position​
2010 Class​
2011 Class​
2012 Class​
2013 Class​
QB​
0​
3​
1​
0​
HB​
1​
1​
0​
2​
WR​
1​
4​
1​
2​
TE​
1​
1​
0​
1​
OL​
4​
4​
5​
2​
DL​
3​
7​
5​
4​
LB​
4​
5​
1​
3​
DB​
5​
2​
3​
5​
ATH​
5​
1​
3​
4​
Total Signees​
24​
29​
20​
23​

So, what does it all mean? I think, with the list I've outlined above, Manny needs to use these following guidelines in order to rebuild our depth:

  1. Prioritize Class Size. There should be no excuse; the 2020 and the 2021 class need to have at least 25 players in each. This is even more pressing in light of the fact that we only signed 18 players in the 2019 class.
  2. Build the Lines. The one thing I pull away from the positional outlay is that Swinney, first and foremost, addressed the offensive and defensive line. He brought big, strong dudes into the program, and the results speak for themselves. Manny should do the same.
  3. Don't Focus on Class Rankings. Depth and numbers in the trenches matter more than total class ranking. I'm not saying allow for scrubs to commit to the program; I'm saying we need to prioritize based on #4...
  4. Five Stars are a nice bonus; they are not a necessary condition. Clemson brought in four five-stars in four years (averaging one a season), and three could be considered "misses." It's more important at the early stages to fill the roster; if one of those guys happen to be a five-star, great. But it's not a death blow, at least not at the start.
  5. Never, ever miss. Each position must be addressed. Even on years where Swinney didn't sign a player at a position, there was usually good reason not to -- the year prior had several players signed at that same position. If Manny wants to start running with the big boys, he can't "skip" a year (like we seem to have tried to do at QB over the past few seasons). Players must be brought in at every position, every signing day, no excuses.
I think these five guiding principles will put the program in a position to run with the current "second tier" of college football - Ohio State, Oklahoma, LSU, etc. Until Watson came to Clemson, the Tigers were firmly planted in this group; only after his tenure, and following last year's championship, did they get to the point where them and Bama are the unequestioned dominant forces in college football.

It didn't happen overnight, and I think if any of you are expecting such a turnaround, you're in for a rude awakening. We can win immediately starting next season; but if you think that the roster construction problems can simply be wished away, and that all we need is one class to get to Clemson's level, you're in for a rude awakening.

Which brings me to my next point, which I know I will get flamed for...

C. The Clemson Model in Practice

I think there's one team who recently put into practice a lot of the principles outlined above and had success doing it: Notre Dame.

I know, I know. The Domers. We crushed them last time we played, we hate them, blah blah blah. But you can't argue with results: since 2016, when they went 4-8 (yet somehow still managed to beat us in South Bend), they've won 23 games, beat a good LSU team in the Citrus Bowl, and reached the playoffs last season. Hatred aside, I think the Canes would swap places with those two-year results.

Major changes were afoot with the Irish following that dreadful 2016 season. But the foundation had been put in place for their playoff run last year, and their 10-win season in 2018, when they adopted a strategy similar to what Swinney built at the beginning of his Clemson tenure.

Number of Signees by Star Ranking

Star Ranking
2015 Class​
2016 Class​
2017 Class (the 4-8 debacle)​
2018 Class​
2019 Class​
Three Star or Lower
11​
10​
13​
15​
10​
Four Star
13​
12​
8​
12​
12​
Five Star
0​
1​
0​
0​
0​

Number of Signees by Position

Position
2015 Class​
2016 Class​
2017 Class (the 4-8 year)​
2018 Class​
2019 Class​
QB
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
HB
2​
2​
1​
2​
1​
WR
4​
3​
2​
3​
2​
TE
1​
0​
2​
2​
0​
OL
2​
4​
4​
4​
4​
DL
4​
3​
5​
3​
5​
LB
4​
3​
3​
4​
4​
DB
5​
6​
0​
6​
4​
ATH
0​
1​
1​
2​
0​
Total Signees
24​
23​
21​
27​
22​

Notice anything about those classes?
  • Prioritize Class Size. The Domers' class size was never smaller than 21.
  • Build the Lines. ND always took at least 6 guys on the offensive and defensive lines. It was clearly made a priority.
  • Don't Focus on Class Rankings. These classes were ranked #11, #13, #13, #11, and #14 respectively. Yet ND has been in the playoff conversation the past two years.
  • Five Stars are a nice bonus; they are not a necessary condition. Only one signed.**
  • Never, ever miss. Every single class has players at each position, with very few exceptions. And with those exceptions -- on years no players were taken at a respective position -- it either came off a season where a large number of players were signed at the same position the year prior, or the Domers took a large number of players at the position the following year.
**ND is a fairly good barometer of what a team can do when it uses the Clemson model to build a solid foundation, but with the academic requirements of the school, I believe Miami is in a far better place to take more highly-rated players. First, the location in South Florida gives it an advantage, and Miami can recruit warm-weather kids that might not be interested in spending four years in South Bend, Indiana. Second, while the academic profile at Miami has been raised considerably in the last ten years, there are simply players we can take here that would not be admitted (or otherwise succeed) at ND.

I know this is been a long-winded post, so I'll wrap it up. But what I think both of these examples show is that Miami has some work to do to get back into the next tier of teams behind Clemson and Alabama; it's not going to just happen over the course of one class. I think Manny understands this and is focused on depth and filling these classes with guys who can win in the trenches.

That being said, Miami can get back to dynasty-level status as long as it focuses on the BASICS when building the program from the ground up. Fill the classes, prioritize numbers, build depth, and hope some five-star guys like you enough to jump aboard (which is not out of the question, with Cheney, Lingard, Pope, etc. all five-star guys on Rivals). This thing can be a monster within the next few years; the key is not to rush it.

TL;DR: Don't stress about the five stars, and focus on classes that are overall well-balanced in terms of total guys taken and positions represented. It's more important to build the foundation in the first few classes than chase after the Top 25 guys.
Click to expand...
OUTSTANDING analysis and write up!! Truly great work! Thank you very much for your effort.
 
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The Clemson model just makes sense, and we can replicate with local talent. Good evals, balanced depth, player development and game management will get you to the ACCCG every year regardless of 5-star recruiting. Probably get you a natty every few years, too. Manny looks like he's putting in the work on addressing these needs right now. So let's start there.

That said, I'm looking forward to the day when guys like DJ Williams, Shockey, Winslow want to commit to Miami again. Chaney is that type of guy. They're the dudes that turn us from a contender into a truly dominant team that's up 30-40 points going into half time over other Top 20 teams. Can't wait to start having more Canes v Longhorns Cotton Bowls in our future.
 
Why we aren't were we want to be as program

1) The "FL 3 star is better then everyone else 4 star" mentality. What seems to go over most fans head is that only Florida kids built this program when that isn't even close to the truth. Actually we've been terrible as a program when we overload our roster/recruiting classes with Florida kids. Coker was the last HC who actually made a habit of recruiting outside the state and if he only had a championship level QB to lead the 03, 04, and 05 teams he would still be here.

2) We need to recruit bigger players. Having shorter guys like Harley and Bandy are cool but in the past we tend to have to many undersized players. It will be difficult to beat big teams like those SEC schools or Clemson when most of your O-line, DT are undersized.

3) Development. Underwhelming careers from HIGHLY touted guys like AQM, Chad Thomas, Jermaine Grace, Stacey Coley, Henderson, etc. The reason Clemson are were they are is because they are doing what we use to do, innovate on offense and attack on defense. You would think that one of these HCs we've hired over the past 10 years would run a high tempo fast pace spread offense given the humidity in SFL but we continue to run the growingly outdated Pro-Style offense.

4) Our S&C program over the year has been ran by amateur I have hope that Feeley is the guy but that's yet to be proven. Still, Swasey and especially Felder were stealing money from the program.

But I agree with your post OP but the recruits still need to be good quality.
 
Fantastic write-up. I think the only thing you missed was how important the quarterback position is. You cannot miss at that position. Just can’t. Watson brought that program to the forefront on his shoulders. The thing is his defense allowed him to do that. Also special teams and so on and so forth. It can be done
 
Great job op but I’m at the point where I just care about who we get at QB. Following these flakey a** recruits for years has burnt me out..just get a great qb and everything else will fall in line
 
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good write up OP. Definitely, like the Clemson model. And you must have a QB to win. I'd take our 3stars any day over ND's 4stars. Their "success" hasn't come from recruiting but more from a weak schedule. Evident by the fact they get jailsexed every time they play a legit team. The only teams on their schedule with a pulse are USC and Stanford. LSU had a QB worse than Rosier the bowl game against ND. USC is in a similar but worse situation then us. Sanctions crippled that program and they've been slow to recover from that, add to it a horrible HC and it's a recipe for disaster. Stanford's def hasn't been the same since Mason left and it's hard to recruit elite kids there yet they've owned ND 7 times in the past 10 years.
 
Katzenboyer said:
I've been meaning to make this thread for awhile, but haven't had time. Now that I've got a moment (and I touched on this briefly in another thread), I wanted to discuss the model Manny needs to pursue in order to return the Canes to dynasty status.

When the topic of South Florida five-stars come up, two common threads emerge: (1) bags; and (2) Clemson, UGA and Bama. There's nothing we can do about #1, and that's a topic for another thread.

A. The Models

"Success Leaves Clues."

When trying to pick a course in terms of building the roster, I think there are three truly elite schools doing it at a level no one else is at the moment: Alabama, UGA, and Clemson. The SEC teams and the ACC team, in my view, have taken different paths to building the rosters they currently possess. I'll refer to those as the "Bama/UGA" model and the "Clemson" model.

Alabama (and, to some extent, UGA) are outliers. There's no situation in which we build the roster the way Saban can on a year-to-year basis. He's going to go down as the greatest coach in NCAA history, and with that comes special benefits (plus, bags). And UGA is certainly a force on the trail right now, but quite a bit of that has been helped by the fact that Kirby has the Bama "shine" on him, and that the last three years have seen the state of Georgia produce an ungodly amount of high school talent that all grew up rooting for the Bulldogs.* That could continue, but again - I don't think Miami's way forward is pursuing the Bama/UGA model.

*in the 2020 class, the state of Georgia has 9 players ranked in the Rivals Top 100. In 2019, that number was 11 and 10 players were so ranked in 2018. (Just as a note for comparison, Florida -- which had 24 players ranked in the Rivals 100 in 2018 -- has 11 million more people living in the state).

So where do we go from here? I give you, the "Clemson" Model.

B. The Clemson Model - Miami's Best Bet

Clemson right now is destroying it on the recruiting trail. In their last three classes (2017-2019) they've signed 11 five-star players. They are set to add the #1 class this year by a gigantic margin -- currently, they have 5 five-stars committed, and some analysts have them adding as many as five more such players. Oh, and they've won 2 out of the last 3 nattys.

But it wasn't always like this. When Dabo became coach in 2008, he inherited a team that had gone 9-4, 8-5, 8-4 and 6-5 in the previous four seasons. Not a juggernaut by any means. And recruiting wise, beginning in 2010 -- Swinney's first full class -- through 2013, he signed classes ranked #19, #8, #14, and #14. Not exactly stellar.

In fact, his next class - signed in February of 2015 - was not exactly the most elite, either. It ranked #14, according to Rivals. But that class became so impactful because it included Deshaun Watson, who I think is the player who really brought Clemson to the next level and allowed it to step into the juggernaut role it currently posses.

I combed through each of the classes leading to Watson's ultimate signing to determine what Clemson did right, and what Miami might replicate. Here's what I found:
  1. Dabo's first two classes were huge. He signed a 24-player class in 2010, and a 29-player class in 2011.
  2. Depth mattered more than ranking. For every class signed by Clemson 2010 - 2014, players ranked three-stars or lower always made up a majority of the class (see the first chart below).
  3. Clemson rarely missed on a position. With one exception (see the second chart below), Clemson addressed every position for the first four years of Swinney's tenure.
  4. Class rankings didn't matter. The classes, as seen below, set the stage for a program that has yet to have less than a double-digit win season since 2011. The depth built in these classes are a big reason why.
  5. Swinney prioritized the line.
  6. While Clemson did get its share of five-stars in this time period, they all came in one year - 2011. Out of those four five-star players, only one turned into a true superstar - Sammy Watkins. Out of the other three, one transferred (Mike Bellamy) and two others were solid, albeit unspectacular contributors to their respective teams (Stephone Anthony and Tony Steward).
Number of Signees by Star Ranking

Star Ranking​
2010 Class​
2011 Class​
2012 Class​
2013 Class​
Three Star or Lower​
15​
19​
11​
13​
Four Star​
9​
6​
9​
10​
Five Star​
0​
4​
0​
0​

Number of Signees by Position

Position​
2010 Class​
2011 Class​
2012 Class​
2013 Class​
QB​
0​
3​
1​
0​
HB​
1​
1​
0​
2​
WR​
1​
4​
1​
2​
TE​
1​
1​
0​
1​
OL​
4​
4​
5​
2​
DL​
3​
7​
5​
4​
LB​
4​
5​
1​
3​
DB​
5​
2​
3​
5​
ATH​
5​
1​
3​
4​
Total Signees​
24​
29​
20​
23​

So, what does it all mean? I think, with the list I've outlined above, Manny needs to use these following guidelines in order to rebuild our depth:

  1. Prioritize Class Size. There should be no excuse; the 2020 and the 2021 class need to have at least 25 players in each. This is even more pressing in light of the fact that we only signed 18 players in the 2019 class.
  2. Build the Lines. The one thing I pull away from the positional outlay is that Swinney, first and foremost, addressed the offensive and defensive line. He brought big, strong dudes into the program, and the results speak for themselves. Manny should do the same.
  3. Don't Focus on Class Rankings. Depth and numbers in the trenches matter more than total class ranking. I'm not saying allow for scrubs to commit to the program; I'm saying we need to prioritize based on #4...
  4. Five Stars are a nice bonus; they are not a necessary condition. Clemson brought in four five-stars in four years (averaging one a season), and three could be considered "misses." It's more important at the early stages to fill the roster; if one of those guys happen to be a five-star, great. But it's not a death blow, at least not at the start.
  5. Never, ever miss. Each position must be addressed. Even on years where Swinney didn't sign a player at a position, there was usually good reason not to -- the year prior had several players signed at that same position. If Manny wants to start running with the big boys, he can't "skip" a year (like we seem to have tried to do at QB over the past few seasons). Players must be brought in at every position, every signing day, no excuses.
I think these five guiding principles will put the program in a position to run with the current "second tier" of college football - Ohio State, Oklahoma, LSU, etc. Until Watson came to Clemson, the Tigers were firmly planted in this group; only after his tenure, and following last year's championship, did they get to the point where them and Bama are the unequestioned dominant forces in college football.

It didn't happen overnight, and I think if any of you are expecting such a turnaround, you're in for a rude awakening. We can win immediately starting next season; but if you think that the roster construction problems can simply be wished away, and that all we need is one class to get to Clemson's level, you're in for a rude awakening.

Which brings me to my next point, which I know I will get flamed for...

C. The Clemson Model in Practice

I think there's one team who recently put into practice a lot of the principles outlined above and had success doing it: Notre Dame.

I know, I know. The Domers. We crushed them last time we played, we hate them, blah blah blah. But you can't argue with results: since 2016, when they went 4-8 (yet somehow still managed to beat us in South Bend), they've won 23 games, beat a good LSU team in the Citrus Bowl, and reached the playoffs last season. Hatred aside, I think the Canes would swap places with those two-year results.

Major changes were afoot with the Irish following that dreadful 2016 season. But the foundation had been put in place for their playoff run last year, and their 10-win season in 2018, when they adopted a strategy similar to what Swinney built at the beginning of his Clemson tenure.

Number of Signees by Star Ranking

Star Ranking
2015 Class​
2016 Class​
2017 Class (the 4-8 debacle)​
2018 Class​
2019 Class​
Three Star or Lower
11​
10​
13​
15​
10​
Four Star
13​
12​
8​
12​
12​
Five Star
0​
1​
0​
0​
0​

Number of Signees by Position

Position
2015 Class​
2016 Class​
2017 Class (the 4-8 year)​
2018 Class​
2019 Class​
QB
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
HB
2​
2​
1​
2​
1​
WR
4​
3​
2​
3​
2​
TE
1​
0​
2​
2​
0​
OL
2​
4​
4​
4​
4​
DL
4​
3​
5​
3​
5​
LB
4​
3​
3​
4​
4​
DB
5​
6​
0​
6​
4​
ATH
0​
1​
1​
2​
0​
Total Signees
24​
23​
21​
27​
22​

Notice anything about those classes?
  • Prioritize Class Size. The Domers' class size was never smaller than 21.
  • Build the Lines. ND always took at least 6 guys on the offensive and defensive lines. It was clearly made a priority.
  • Don't Focus on Class Rankings. These classes were ranked #11, #13, #13, #11, and #14 respectively. Yet ND has been in the playoff conversation the past two years.
  • Five Stars are a nice bonus; they are not a necessary condition. Only one signed.**
  • Never, ever miss. Every single class has players at each position, with very few exceptions. And with those exceptions -- on years no players were taken at a respective position -- it either came off a season where a large number of players were signed at the same position the year prior, or the Domers took a large number of players at the position the following year.
**ND is a fairly good barometer of what a team can do when it uses the Clemson model to build a solid foundation, but with the academic requirements of the school, I believe Miami is in a far better place to take more highly-rated players. First, the location in South Florida gives it an advantage, and Miami can recruit warm-weather kids that might not be interested in spending four years in South Bend, Indiana. Second, while the academic profile at Miami has been raised considerably in the last ten years, there are simply players we can take here that would not be admitted (or otherwise succeed) at ND.

I know this is been a long-winded post, so I'll wrap it up. But what I think both of these examples show is that Miami has some work to do to get back into the next tier of teams behind Clemson and Alabama; it's not going to just happen over the course of one class. I think Manny understands this and is focused on depth and filling these classes with guys who can win in the trenches.

That being said, Miami can get back to dynasty-level status as long as it focuses on the BASICS when building the program from the ground up. Fill the classes, prioritize numbers, build depth, and hope some five-star guys like you enough to jump aboard (which is not out of the question, with Cheney, Lingard, Pope, etc. all five-star guys on Rivals). This thing can be a monster within the next few years; the key is not to rush it.

TL;DR: Don't stress about the five stars, and focus on classes that are overall well-balanced in terms of total guys taken and positions represented. It's more important to build the foundation in the first few classes than chase after the Top 25 guys.
Click to expand...
Great post!!!!
 
Great write up. It all starts up front and Clemson did well finding and developing players they also are in a part of the country where there are a lot of good OL/DL. You also cant tell the Clemson story without mentioning when Dabo was on the hot seat he went out and got a innovated OC in Chad morris. Its also tough to expect this staff to hit on every lower rated recruit like Clemson has and have none of there high ranked truly bust.
 
PGrady24 said:
You make some valid points (depth, building the lines, etc.). These are 100% necessary.

But finding a transcendent QB is the most important factor for success. In my opinion.
Click to expand...
It holds true in the pros too.

That said, it looks like Diaz is going about it the right way - besides hiring Enos (who still has that Bama rub on him and is bringing in quality QBs), we're building both lines and adding athletic depth. All the guys coming in can run, which is in the core DNA of Miami football.
 
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theuksu said:
good write up OP. Definitely, like the Clemson model. And you must have a QB to win. I'd take our 3stars any day over ND's 4stars. Their "success" hasn't come from recruiting but more from a weak schedule. Evident by the fact they get jailsexed every time they play a legit team. The only teams on their schedule with a pulse are USC and Stanford. LSU had a QB worse than Rosier the bowl game against ND. USC is in a similar but worse situation then us. Sanctions crippled that program and they've been slow to recover from that, add to it a horrible HC and it's a recipe for disaster. Stanford's def hasn't been the same since Mason left and it's hard to recruit elite kids there yet they've owned ND 7 times in the past 10 years.
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Look, I'm not here to argue the merits of the Domers, but a few things:

1.) We play a weak schedule. If we recruit at the same level as ND, we're hitting double-digit wins every season and playing in the ACCG every year. That's the gist of what I was getting at by including ND in there.

2.) As sweet as the Massacre at the Rock was, ND has lost 2 games since the night of November 11, 2017; we've lost 9.

3.) "Our 3 stars" - and four stars and five stars - barely slipped by a dreadful FSU squad last season at home. ND ran them off the field and had their JV team in by the end of the third quarter. And they've had a few guys go in the first round in the past few seasons (Tillery, Nelson, McGlinchey). Let's not act like they haven't recruited and developed talent.

4.) ND's 2018 season included some solid wins, including against #14 (Michigan), 9-4 Stanford, #19 Northwestern, and #15 Syracuse. And the Clemson team that killed them in the playoffs proceeded to beat Bama by a larger margin a week later; that says a lot more about Clemson than it does ND, in my opinion.

Again, I'm not saying that we want to turn the program in that direction. All my post was aimed at is that the Irish have had solid success recruiting in a similar manner that Swinney did in his 2010 - 2014 classes, and they've stepped into the "next tier" of top programs behind Clemson and Bama. That's all.

Now excuse me, I need to go vomit.
 
OldhamA said:
It holds true in the pros too.

That said, it looks like Diaz is going about it the right way - besides hiring Enos (who still has that Bama rub on him and is bringing in quality QBs), we're building both lines and adding athletic depth. All the guys coming in can run, which is in the core DNA of Miami football.
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Yup. I like the current trajectory of the class, but it requires us to hold onto our current commits and adding a few more guys on both lines, in addition to some skill positions (which is likely going to happen).
 
jackbenimble71 said:
good write up. but I'll sum it up in shorter format.

1) got what players he could
2) coached them up - with Clemson it has been ALL ABOUT THE COACHING. They have found players that needed to be developed and developed them.
3) got a franchise qb
4) starting winning games and the ACC
5) made it to cfp several times and eventually won
6) 5 stars are now lining up to play
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Agreed. I'm sure in recruiting, like in dating, you learn how to read when kids ain't feeling you. You may not get all the dimes you holla at, but as you get a better house, car, money and popularity more hot babes agree to date you. Before that you get those 7-9's that fine as **** and you ain't embarrassed to be seen with. These are the babes that those dime envy because they recognize you becoming a whale (gambling term) and they want to play too.
 
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Katzenboyer said:
I wouldn't call Boyd transcendent, but hadn't realized 247 had him as a five-star (were they even around back then?). Your point stands, though - Swinney had a very good QB in Boyd.

I was basing my comments off the fact Rivals had him as the #51 overall player in 2009. Martell was #39 in 2017 and Kosi was #188 his class. So I think we have that covered, and that the success Clemson built extended far beyond Boyd's contributions.
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It started with Boyd, the LSU bowl win put them on an upward trajectory. Solid post tho. I think we have 3 classes so far, thanks to the portal. 20 and 21 can be a solid foundation completed.
 
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