Prototypes

[TemplarCane]

That same Clinton Portis didnt get why Sean Taylor wanted to play S at Miami instead of playing RB when he watched his HS tape.

Just goes to show you. ST could have been a great RB, if he’d accept the wear and tear, or a great WR.

 

[Bender]

Just goes to show you. ST could have been a great RB, if he’d accept the wear and tear, or a great WR.

Sean Taylor could have been a great everything.

 

[TemplarCane]

Sean Taylor could have been a great everything.

I always wondered if there ever was a package for him at WR. Not changing positions, just a few plays to get him on the field more.

Imagine in 2002, lining up Andre Johnson and Sean Taylor at WR, Winslow 2 at TE, Willis at TB.

 

[DTP]

The CB position is very interesting too me because that’s the 1 position I believe that in today’s game you need a good combo of length and speed on the outside if you want to play heavy Cat cover. Which is the defense most teams use to combat today’s schemes. You look at the next level and most the top guys aside from Jair, Harris JR and Casey Hayward, all of have length and and run. And the smaller guys usually are more zone type guys who are cat Quick and react

Every team (aside from Miami) seems to have big body guys on the outside at WR. You look at the Bamas, Clemson and recent DBU OSU and they seem to set a high premium for speed and length on the outside. **** Bama don’t seem to recruit u as a outside corner unless your 6”0 or better now.

Now there’s always a place for a kid like Bandy and Couch in the slot in today’s game but a guy that size has to have that pitt bull mentality and be ready to hit. Which both do.

outside corner or the only position that you need prototypical size and speed if you want to compete at a elite level in CFB Imo..every other position especially on defense you can get ballers that come in different shapes n sizes

Which is why I think Stevenson can be a really great corner here. Especially if Manny goes back to his tendencies as a DC at Miami. Guys like Blades and Ivey (yes, i know his ball skills are horrible) are bigger body guys more suited to man coverage that allows them to get physical. Stevenson fits the mold too but I think he’s superior athletically to the other two guys. Baker would tend to get too attached to cover three and using big body guys on the outside but making them play off the receiver just seems pointless. For the record, I'm not a “never play zone” guy. I just think if you recruited a certain type of corner for a specific reason, why do the opposite?

 

[305to954]

Which is why I think Stevenson can be a really great corner here. Especially if Manny goes back to his tendencies as a DC at Miami. Guys like Blades and Ivey (yes, i know his ball skills are horrible) are bigger body guys more suited to man coverage that allows them to get physical. Stevenson fits the mold too but I think he’s superior athletically to the other two guys. Baker would tend to get too attached to cover three and using big body guys on the outside but making them play off the receiver just seems pointless. For the record, I'm not a “never play zone” guy. I just think if you recruited a certain type of corner for a specific reason, why do the opposite?

I’m not a never zone guy too. Put u can still reroute at the LOS with zone. That what I didn’t like with What baker ran. In today’s game imo it’s a must to get hands on WRs a disrupt timing

 

[Ethnicsands]

The CB position is very interesting too me because that’s the 1 position I believe that in today’s game you need a good combo of length and speed on the outside if you want to play heavy Cat cover. Which is the defense most teams use to combat today’s schemes. You look at the next level and most the top guys aside from Jair, Harris JR and Casey Hayward, all of have length and and run. And the smaller guys usually are more zone type guys who are cat Quick and react

Every team (aside from Miami) seems to have big body guys on the outside at WR. You look at the Bamas, Clemson and recent DBU OSU and they seem to set a high premium for speed and length on the outside. **** Bama don’t seem to recruit u as a outside corner unless your 6”0 or better now.

Now there’s always a place for a kid like Bandy and Couch in the slot in today’s game but a guy that size has to have that pitt bull mentality and be ready to hit. Which both do.

outside corner or the only position that you need prototypical size and speed if you want to compete at a elite level in CFB Imo..every other position especially on defense you can get ballers that come in different shapes n sizes

While I don't disagree with your observations, I'd note that recruiting is game theory - you don't just get to have the kids you want. You have competitors recruiting the same kids for their needs.

IMO we have over-focused on a size prototype at CB that's rare enough that the SEC takes those kids and we're left choosing between next level quality at the size spec or top level quality at off-spec on size kids. By the time our generally clueless staff discovers it's not getting its targets at CB, it is often too late to pick up kids we should have been on from the get go, but were smaller. Samuels was an example there have been plenty of others.

My view is we should worry less about the size prototype and make sure we have good cover corners. There aren't many games a year we play where 2" of height at CB is going to be the difference between winning and losing. But a CB who's tall but can't keep up with a WR, that guy will kill us even against mediocre teams. Meanwhile, because of what you mentioned, which is Alabama is taking bigger CBs, we can actually get some really good guys who are just a bit off spec on height. Couch, Bandy, these guys can play for us.

Of course, we should also keep recruiting bigger guys who can play. But ever since Carlos Armour was the 'next big thing' around Cane hype sites for almost his whole career, it seems to me the prototype CB guys we recruit underperform many of the kids we pass over to take them.

 

[DTP]

I’m not a never zone guy too. Put u can still reroute at the LOS with zone. That what I didn’t like with What baker ran. In today’s game imo it’s a must to get hands on WRs a disrupt timing

Exactly. With the premium our defense puts on pressuring the passer, disrupting the short passing game by just a second would pay dividends. You can still get a good jam and play cover 2 behind it. We need to get back to forcing QBs to beat us over the top. Surrendering a 7 yard pass under the coverage is fine on 3rd and 10 but giving up those plays on first and second down just kill the defense. I’m all about the philosophy of selling out for negative plays on early downs and then be willing to cede underneath stuff on 3rd and long.

 

[305to954]

While I don't disagree with your observations, I'd note that recruiting is game theory - you don't just get to have the kids you want. You have competitors recruiting the same kids for their needs.

IMO we have over-focused on a size prototype at CB that's rare enough that the SEC takes those kids and we're left choosing between next level quality at the size spec or top level quality at off-spec on size kids. By the time our generally clueless staff discovers it's not getting its targets at CB, it is often too late to pick up kids we should have been on from the get go, but were smaller. Samuels was an example there have been plenty of others.

My view is we should worry less about the size prototype and make sure we have good cover corners. There aren't many games a year we play where 2" of height at CB is going to be the difference between winning and losing. But a CB who's tall but can't keep up with a WR, that guy will kill us even against mediocre teams. Meanwhile, because of what you mentioned, which is Alabama is taking bigger CBs, we can actually get some really good guys who are just a bit off spec on height. Couch, Bandy, these guys can play for us.

Of course, we should also keep recruiting bigger guys who can play. But ever since Carlos Armour was the 'next big thing' around Cane hype sites for almost his whole career, it seems to me the prototype CB guys we recruit underperform many of the kids we pass over to take them.

I agree. And that goes back to your original point. Length and speed word on the outside. But you can’t settle for guy who don’t meet that. It has to show up on tape. They have to be football players and those traits have to translate. Not ever 6”0 plus CB can play at this level

 

[OriginalCanesCanesCanes]

No offense taken, just a discussion.

My first example was how Wilfork biased our DT recruiting under Coker. That's the same HC so obviously different from your response.

W/re AJ, I mentioned Leggett and Jolla as follow-ups, both Coker also. Same point.

Re DJ, it's a more long-term issue in our LB recruiting, excepting Dorito, who was a former LB and had his own view.

So I haven't quite said what you're disagreeing with, though I ask about it, because I notice that especially at WR and LB, we've continued for a long time to recruit to a prototype that is a bad approach to the position. Who knows why. I'm suggesting one reason.

I do know that plenty of leaders go into organizations and end up going native, so to speak. There's nothing unusual about people adopting some of the beliefs (lore) of organizations they lead. That is time tested organizational behavior. It actually takes a strong leader to avoid this and change the organization's belief on some topics. And we certainly haven't had strong leaders. Just listen to Hurlie Brown in the recruiting video from the Golden years. He's giving you the 'UM' legacy view. He happened to be right in that discussion, but the point is, there are lots of ways that tribal beliefs get spread and reinforced. Not just here. Everywhere. But maybe it's all just bad luck.

Whatever the explanation, we're aiming at the wrong models at WR and LB. So a secondary point here is evaluation in my mind is really fitting a kid to the model you're seeking. How you define the spec is a separate aspect of evals. They converge, no doubt, on can the kid do the job in college. But when a HC says get me LBs like this, the staff can find the best ones out there, and it still may be the wrong spec they're targeting.

It’s very difficult to compare a new coaching regime to a new regime in other organizations where the culture is already there.

These other organizations have infrastructure, organization, including personnel already built-in and doing business, when a new management team comes in. It’s a small group of people. They’re already is a culture there. Corporate culture change in large organizations is not instantaneous and can take years.

Football coaches bring their culture with them. At least as it relates to the actual football coaching and talent selection part. The secretarial pool in the athletic department, the graduate assistant volunteers, the ticket office, et al, do not determine the football culture. Neither does the athletic director. Not the football part of it.

The new coaching regime brings its decision makers, and their way of doing things, especially when it comes to football matters such as type of offense, type of defense, and type of player they recruit.

 

[Ethnicsands]

It’s very difficult to compare a new coaching regime to a new regime in other organizations where the culture is already there.

These other organizations have infrastructure, organization, including personnel already built-in and doing business, when a new management team comes in. It’s a small group of people. They’re already is a culture there. Corporate culture change in large organizations is not instantaneous and can take years.

Football coaches bring their culture with them. At least as it relates to the actual football coaching and talent selection part. The secretarial pool in the athletic department, the graduate assistant volunteers, the ticket office, et al, do not determine the football culture. Neither does the athletic director. Not the football part of it.

The new coaching regime brings its decision makers, and their way of doing things, especially when it comes to football matters such as type of offense, type of defense, and type of player they recruit.

Eh, it’s not as black and white as you say. There are culturally persistent aspects of UM football, more than you believe. That’s why manny goes with chains and talks swag. Not that it’s smart, but it’s clear evidence he identifies those things with Um culture and wants to connect with it. It’s actually pretty hard to change or install culture. New coaches don’t come with new players. Our past coaches have sucked at it, moreover. Coker came from Butch’s staff. He allowed Butch’s culture to erode, but had nothing deliberate to install. Shannon came from Coker’s staff and grew up in the program. Golden tried to bring some cultural change but it didn’t work or fit. At all. Ice cream socials and weird poorly written emoticon letters to players weren’t UM. And still, Golden kept Swasey and brought back Kehoe and brought on local HS types specifically to attach to Um’s culture. Richt tried and IMO made a bit of progress changing culture, but ultimately quit, probably in part because it wasn’t working right for him. Manny has never led anything before Um so the idea he understands how to install a culture and lead it isn’t credible. And in any case, he hasn’t installed a strong or new culture in his time here and specifically brought back ed reed to try to help him tap into UM’s cultural history.

I have said many times, I’d like a coach who could install a winning culture. Culture is the foundation of leadership, or vice versa, or something. We’ve had neither in two decades.