Prototypes

[Ethnicsands]

Reading another thread got me thinking to whether we've had some guys over the years who distorted the prototype our staff recruited for at their position.

Examples:

- Vince Wilfork - not the typical UM 3 tech. Was so good. Coker then tried to recruit more big NG types. Abdullah and Dixon come to mind. Except there isn't another Big Vince and our recruiting base is more DT than NT. Meanwhile, DT-U had a brutal time recruiting dominating DTs for a long while. We had Lewis and Joseph go 1st round in '01, '03, then Big Vince in '04. Since then we've had 2 4th round DTs, both Coker era (Harris, K. Brown), then only RJ in 5th round. Since '04. Lesson: stick to the proven UM mold at DT unless you have a once in a generation guy like Wilfork.

- Andre Johnson - combined fast and quick with big and tough and hands. Before Dre our bigger WRs were more ball guys. The staff started looking for measurables IMO trying to replicate AJ. Leggett comes to mind. Jolla. It's not that we went away from fast smaller guys (Parrish, e.g.). But our mold for bigger guys was changed a bit. Since the Coker era, we had Dorsett go 1st as IIRC the fastest guy in that draft, Benjamin went 4th (fast as heck), and Osborn 5th. Plenty of problems with our evals at WR but IMO chasing measurables over playmaking is part of it. Lesson? Worry less about how you get to the ball and more about what you do when you get there.

- DJ Williams - our LBs were traditionally instinctive guys, IMO. We shifted to more of an athlete / projection approach. Gooden, Adkins, Sharpton. We had some of that previously (T. Russell comes to mind) but more of the UM LBs from the pre-'01 era were really LBs, not athletes first. The only LBs we've had drafted 4th and above since the Coker era recruits are Spence, McCarthy, Perryman and Shaq. McCarthy, I don't recall his recruitment and he was a lot better athlete than folks realize so not sure how he first the list but the other guys were good, solid LB instinct guys coming in, in my recollect. Lesson? Recruit LBs for LB. Athletes for DE.

Just another way to wonder about our evals. But like I always say, step 1 is knowing what you're looking for. Yes, recognizing fit to spec is core to evaluations. But you gotta start with your spec.

 

[pacusmc]

Prototypes change depending on how the game is coached and what’s allowed by the rules and referees.
A guy like Hollywood Brown would’ve never made the league 25 years ago imo.

Talke the Marshall Faulk recruitment for example.
All p5 coaches including Erickson wanted him as a db.
Let’s even look at our own qb. He shattered all of Kyler Murray’s high school records in Texas and was being recruited as a receiver and even played receiver for his freshman year. King only slid in as a qb because the starter got hurt and it was only as a “temporary” solution. Fortunately he balled out and became the starter.

 

[Ethnicsands]

I don't think we've had this issue at safety. Maybe because while ST was a mold breaker athletically, he had all the ball instincts of anyone who ever played the position.

We've always had bugaboos at CB, but it's not really a reaction to particular guys, I don't think. More of just quirky evals. Different issue.

Our DE mold seems to be working. TE also. RB no real issues. OL we have no idea how to evaluate but I can't in that on looking for the next McKinnie.

QB is just pure evals. We ain't been good at it.

 

[Ethnicsands]

Prototypes change depending on how the game is coached and what’s allowed by the rules and referees.
A guy like Hollywood Brown would’ve never made the league 25 years ago imo.

Talke the Marshall Faulk recruitment for example.
All p5 coaches including Erickson wanted him as a db.
Let’s even look at our own qb. He shattered all of Kyler Murray’s high school records in Texas and was being recruited as a receiver and even played receiver for his freshman year. King only slid in as a qb because the starter got hurt and it was only as a “temporary” solution. Fortunately he balled out and became the starter.

Faulk was just a mistake by everyone. He wasn't an 'era' issue, IMO. He was a RB then and now. He cold have been a DB then and now. He could have been a WR then and now.

There are some things that change with time, but there are also biases that staffs have and molds they recruit to fill. People have been talking about staff biases and it just occurred to me, there's also this issue in what we target in recruiting.

 

[pacusmc]

Faulk was just a mistake by everyone. He wasn't an 'era' issue, IMO. He was a RB then and now. He cold have been a DB then and now. He could have been a WR then and now.

There are some things that change with time, but there are also biases that staffs have and molds they recruit to fill. People have been talking about staff biases and it just occurred to me, there's also this issue in what we target in recruiting.

There has to be a reason why all people that make a living at p5 football missed him at rb. There were dudes in the league at that time like Emmet and Sanders that weren’t your typical old school big tall backs.
Maybe people were looking for quicker shiftier corners. But when I found out that every p5 offer was for db it blew my mind. Dude literally had near heisman numbers as a freshman.

 

[Ethnicsands]

There has to be a reason why all people that make a living at p5 football missed him at rb. There were dudes in the league at that time like Emmet and Sanders that weren’t your typical old school big tall backs.
Maybe people were looking for quicker shiftier corners. But when I found out that every p5 offer was for db it blew my mind. Dude literally had near heisman numbers as a freshman.

I don’t think it was a mold issue in terms of big/tall. Payton, Sayers, Dorsett Weren’t big guys.

That was an era where coaches didn’t really negotiate with kids. Faulk was from New Orleans. Bunch a SEC programs were prolly used to ‘whatever, just come here and we’ll figure it out.’ For whatever reason he wanted the assurance and got it from SD ST.

I can’t explain the error because from the first time I watched him play as a frosh, it was obvious he was once a generation special.

 

[TemplarCane]

Our own Clinton Portis was being recruited as a DB by hometown UF. A tape he sent to Miami got the Canes to recruit him as RB. Or so goes the story....

 

[DTP]

Couldn't agree more on linebacker evals. I probably sound like a broken record but we need to stop recruiting tweener pass rushers with the intent of making them off the ball linebackers. Good size and athleticism doesn’t mean you can just make the transition from rushing into the backfield on every play to diagnosing plays and being in the right position every time. Smarts and instincts are more important. The best guys obviously have both and there’s certainly a floor for athleticism at the position but I’d take a stiff and slow Shaq Quarterman everyday over the athletically superior Zach McCloud. Corey Flag is probably going to be our starting MLB and he might have been our lowest rated linebacker recruit.

As for our quarterback issues, there’s two factors to blame. First, we’ve had four different OC/QB coaches in the last ten years. They all had different priorities it seems. Secondly, and more importantly, we haven’t been playing the numbers game until very recently. I used to be against recruiting QBs every year because I didn’t want to lose roster spots to guys who weren’t going to play or guys who would likely transfer if they didn’t win the job. Now, you HAVE to take a QB every year. You can’t hitch your wagon to one guy and hope and pray he works out or never gets hurt. You need to try to bring in a blue chip QB every year. We lucked out that Stephen Morris turned out to be a solid QB because he was just slated to be Teddy Bridgewater’s backup. Then we had to trot out Malik Rosier for two years because frankly, our staff never planned for Kaaya to leave and we had nobody besides a baseball player to play the position. The more recent seasons have been hit and miss but that’s why you sign guys every year. Imagine Payton Matocha taking all the snaps this spring because they didn’t recruit anyone else and were caught off guard by King’s injury. That’s exactly how Miami handled the QB position until recently.

 

[CaneThang2020]

Reading another thread got me thinking to whether we've had some guys over the years who distorted the prototype our staff recruited for at their position.

Examples:

- Vince Wilfork - not the typical UM 3 tech. Was so good. Coker then tried to recruit more big NG types. Abdullah and Dixon come to mind. Except there isn't another Big Vince and our recruiting base is more DT than NT. Meanwhile, DT-U had a brutal time recruiting dominating DTs for a long while. We had Lewis and Joseph go 1st round in '01, '03, then Big Vince in '04. Since then we've had 2 4th round DTs, both Coker era (Harris, K. Brown), then only RJ in 5th round. Since '04. Lesson: stick to the proven UM mold at DT unless you have a once in a generation guy like Wilfork.

- Andre Johnson - combined fast and quick with big and tough and hands. Before Dre our bigger WRs were more ball guys. The staff started looking for measurables IMO trying to replicate AJ. Leggett comes to mind. Jolla. It's not that we went away from fast smaller guys (Parrish, e.g.). But our mold for bigger guys was changed a bit. Since the Coker era, we had Dorsett go 1st as IIRC the fastest guy in that draft, Benjamin went 4th (fast as heck), and Osborn 5th. Plenty of problems with our evals at WR but IMO chasing measurables over playmaking is part of it. Lesson? Worry less about how you get to the ball and more about what you do when you get there.

- DJ Williams - our LBs were traditionally instinctive guys, IMO. We shifted to more of an athlete / projection approach. Gooden, Adkins, Sharpton. We had some of that previously (T. Russell comes to mind) but more of the UM LBs from the pre-'01 era were really LBs, not athletes first. The only LBs we've had drafted 4th and above since the Coker era recruits are Spence, McCarthy, Perryman and Shaq. McCarthy, I don't recall his recruitment and he was a lot better athlete than folks realize so not sure how he first the list but the other guys were good, solid LB instinct guys coming in, in my recollect. Lesson? Recruit LBs for LB. Athletes for DE.

Just another way to wonder about our evals. But like I always say, step 1 is knowing what you're looking for. Yes, recognizing fit to spec is core to evaluations. But you gotta start with your spec.

Bad LB play is probably the one spot on a DEF that will get you killed in a game....I couldn't agree with this post more as you hit on the head with the statement of "Recruit LBs for LB". Everyone of our classes needs to have at least 1 Corey Flagg traditional LB type in it.

 

[SayWhat]

Let's be real here.

I get what you're getting at, but you just listed physical freaks. We would love to have them, but by and large those types are signing with the top programs these days.

Vince, his body is literally the biggest freaks show of those you listed. Widest bodied man I've ever seen or stood next to. Guy is built like a fantasy books Drawf, just taller. Do they even make clothing his size?

Andre Johnson, another freak with the speed and size combo. We're seeing more of his type each year, but at most there's a couple a year.

DJ Williams, a monster recruit and to this day, our biggest recruit ever. Everybody wanted him, there's no place he couldn't have gone.

Shoot for the sky though. Those traits are prototypical for every team in the land. We want these types of players, but we've gotta beat all the top dogs for them.

 

[Ethnicsands]

Let's be real here.

I get what you're getting at, but you just listed physical freaks. We would love to have them, but by and large those types are signing with the top programs these days.

Vince, his body is literally the biggest freaks show of those you listed. Widest bodied man I've ever seen or stood next to. Guy is built like a fantasy books Drawf, just taller. Do they even make clothing his size?

Andre Johnson, another freak with the speed and size combo. We're seeing more of his type each year, but at most there's a couple a year.

DJ Williams, a monster recruit and to this day, our biggest recruit ever. Everybody wanted him, there's no place he couldn't have gone.

Shoot for the sky though. Those traits are prototypical for every team in the land. We want these types of players, but we've gotta beat all the top dogs for them.

Not sure if you see what I'm getting at based on your response.

I get that these guys are almost impossible to find. That's my point. They're examples of guys who we shouldn't be trying to recruit to replace, but probably have tried to do this in the past, and in the process have messed up our recruiting targets/evals.

Wilfork my point is out of date because we've mostly fixed the DT prototype since Dorito, even if we haven't landed all the guys we need.

But at LB, we still recruit athletes over LBs. Ditto WR. So my point is we're chasing a model that's very hard to find and as a result targeting the wrong criteria in the kids we recruit at these spots.

Anyhow, just interested in people's views. LB and WR are two positions where we've botched the traits we're seeking, not just our evaluations against them. Wondering aloud if the reasons for this have roots in some of the guys we were blessed to have had play for us in the past.

 

[OriginalCanesCanesCanes]

Wondering aloud if the reasons for this have roots in some of the guys we were blessed to have had play for us in the past.

Logically, I am not making much sense of this question, unless our talent evaluators are people that have been affiliated with a program for a significant amount of time, have a “OG Miami template“ in mind.

Who is doing the evaluation, and why would they even think about players that have played for us in the past, when most of these evaluators are hired coaches and the people they bring in, most of whom had very little to do with great Miami teams from the past.

Golden sure didn’t have a Miami template in mind, Rick’s templates were formed at FSU and Georgia, not his four years playing here. Of which he did very little of. Diaz has been all over the place before Miami, but none of it was here. Neither have the people who work for the three coaches I just mentioned had long histories with the old-school Miami teams.

 

[grover]

I personally think you need a mix of recruits that have elite characteristics and those that are proven ballers. Ideally you have both in the same guy. But that's not always possible.

What I don't like is targeting a specific profile. It should be based n best available. You adjust your scheme and system to fit the team, not the reverse, IMHO. And if you're not willing to do that, you should stop recruiting the tweener types. Because they never seem to succeed at Miami.

I appreciate the comment on LBers. That seems to me to be the one exception. "Athletes" often don't work there per se. But that's because we're looking at DEs. I'd rather look at Safeties, especially the rover types, and convert them to LBs like we did with Beason. Those kids are typically more field aware, smarter, and react to the ball better. The rush ends from high school really struggle.

 

[Ethnicsands]

Logically, I am not making much sense of this question, unless our talent evaluators are people that have been affiliated with a program for a significant amount of time, have a “OG Miami template“ in mind.

Who is doing the evaluation, and why would they even think about players that have played for us in the past, when most of these evaluators are hired coaches and the people they bring in, most of whom had very little to do with great Miami teams from the past.

Golden sure didn’t have a Miami template in mind, Rick’s templates were formed at FSU and Georgia, not his four years playing here. Of which he did very little of. Diaz has been all over the place before Miami, but none of it was here. Neither have the people who work for the three coaches I just mentioned had long histories with the old-school Miami teams.

It’s a fair response, except culture and lore have independent existence. There have been miami guys on staff all the way through. Players return. I don’t have an answer but on the other hand, the idea that evals are clean canvas fresh each year isn’t true either. We’ e had our types of error and the question is why and wondering aloud if one reason is the above.

 

[No_Fly_Zone]

Let's be real here.

I get what you're getting at, but you just listed physical freaks. We would love to have them, but by and large those types are signing with the top programs these days.

Vince, his body is literally the biggest freaks show of those you listed. Widest bodied man I've ever seen or stood next to. Guy is built like a fantasy books Drawf, just taller. Do they even make clothing his size?

Andre Johnson, another freak with the speed and size combo. We're seeing more of his type each year, but at most there's a couple a year.

DJ Williams, a monster recruit and to this day, our biggest recruit ever. Everybody wanted him, there's no place he couldn't have gone.

Shoot for the sky though. Those traits are prototypical for every team in the land. We want these types of players, but we've gotta beat all the top dogs for them.

I think what OP is getting at is those circumstances where we chase these physical prototypes to the detriment of other indicators. I, too, would love a kid like Justin Flowe who checks every box. And we should shoot our shot with those kids until the bag is delivered. But it's the moves at the margins (those high 3* and low 4*) where we get in the most trouble prioritizing size at certain spots.

Going after the Wiggins, Ezzards and Hightowers of the world because they check certain height/weight boxes to the detriment of bringing in the Elijah Moore's of the world. Falling off and slow playing a 5'9" Asante Samuel behind the 6' Ivey. Passing on Calijah Kancey to kick rocks because of his height and bringing in Jalar Holley instead. The love affair with turning slim, fast HS DEs into stand-up OLBs, which feels backwards from the way guys like Butch and JJ moved tweeners with speed closer to the line of scrimmage, not further away (though I do understand, to an extent, because we do seem to have an abundance of those tweener edge rushers in South Florida).

All of that said, the way they brought in Smith and are chasing Mike Jackson indicates to me that maybe this current offensive staff is less married to height/weight requirements at WR than prior staffs. So there is reason for optimism there. I am convinced production in HS along with playmaking abilities should be the mantra here.

LB recruiting has been a complete mess since Diaz's arrival, plus some bad luck with injuries just to really add fuel to the fire. Flagg has some of the worst measurables in the group but plays because he has the best instincts for the position. We need more LBs that actually play LB in HS, or even inside the box, downhill safeties (really though... like, lining up 3+ yards behind the LOS except on the rare blitz or goal line, and I don't want to see a hand in the dirt). If I have to pick, I would rather us turn the 6' 195lb. safety who plays inside the box into an OLB than turn the 6'3" 205 lb. stand-up DE/EDGE into an OLB.

And I'm less concerned about DT recruiting right now than I have been in a while (landing Taylor has that effect). They still have a clear size preference but it's more length/height over weight, and this staff is also very willing to put SDEs at the 3-tech and let them create some havoc inside. I think works for the defense and some of the local talent we have.

 

[Ethnicsands]

I think what OP is getting at is those circumstances where we chase these physical prototypes to the detriment of other indicators. I, too, would love a kid like Justin Flowe who checks every box. And we should shoot our shot with those kids until the bag is delivered. But it's the moves at the margins (those high 3* and low 4*) where we get in the most trouble prioritizing size at certain spots.

Going after the Wiggins, Ezzards and Hightowers of the world because they check certain height/weight boxes to the detriment of bringing in the Elijah Moore's of the world. Falling off and slow playing a 5'9" Asante Samuel behind the 6' Ivey. Passing on Calijah Kancey to kick rocks because of his height and bringing in Jalar Holley instead. The love affair with turning slim, fast HS DEs into stand-up OLBs, which feels backwards from the way guys like Butch and JJ moved tweeners with speed closer to the line of scrimmage, not further away (though I do understand, to an extent, because we do seem to have an abundance of those tweener edge rushers in South Florida).

All of that said, the way they brought in Smith and are chasing Mike Jackson indicates to me that maybe this current offensive staff is less married to height/weight requirements at WR than prior staffs. So there is reason for optimism there. I am convinced production in HS along with playmaking abilities should be the matra here.

LB recruiting has been a complete mess since Diaz's arrival, plus some bad luck with injuries just to really add fuel to the fire. Flagg has some of the worst measurables in the group but plays because he has the best instincts for the position. We need more LBs that actually play LB in HS, or even inside the box, downhill safeties (really though... like, lining up 3+ yards behind the LOS except on the rare blitz of goal line, and I don't want to see a hand in the dirt). If I have to pick, I would rather us turn the 6' 195lb. safety who plays inside the box into an OLB than turn the 6'3" 205 lb. stand-up DE/EDGE into an OLB.

And I'm less concerned about DT recruiting right now than I have been in a while (landing Taylor has that effect). They still have a clear size preference but it's more length/height over weight, and this staff is also very willing to put SDEs at the 3-tech and let them create some havoc inside. I think works for the defense and some of the local talent we have.

This is exactly the conversation I was trying to have. Also adding that a few of the positions we have struggled with the most have been skewed by us seemingly chasing the wrong types of kids. And maybe just that we generally lose kids we should get when they deviate from our spec even if they’re proven players. Like you note.

 

[AUcane]

Reading another thread got me thinking to whether we've had some guys over the years who distorted the prototype our staff recruited for at their position.

Examples:

- Vince Wilfork - not the typical UM 3 tech. Was so good. Coker then tried to recruit more big NG types. Abdullah and Dixon come to mind. Except there isn't another Big Vince and our recruiting base is more DT than NT. Meanwhile, DT-U had a brutal time recruiting dominating DTs for a long while. We had Lewis and Joseph go 1st round in '01, '03, then Big Vince in '04. Since then we've had 2 4th round DTs, both Coker era (Harris, K. Brown), then only RJ in 5th round. Since '04. Lesson: stick to the proven UM mold at DT unless you have a once in a generation guy like Wilfork.

- Andre Johnson - combined fast and quick with big and tough and hands. Before Dre our bigger WRs were more ball guys. The staff started looking for measurables IMO trying to replicate AJ. Leggett comes to mind. Jolla. It's not that we went away from fast smaller guys (Parrish, e.g.). But our mold for bigger guys was changed a bit. Since the Coker era, we had Dorsett go 1st as IIRC the fastest guy in that draft, Benjamin went 4th (fast as heck), and Osborn 5th. Plenty of problems with our evals at WR but IMO chasing measurables over playmaking is part of it. Lesson? Worry less about how you get to the ball and more about what you do when you get there.

- DJ Williams - our LBs were traditionally instinctive guys, IMO. We shifted to more of an athlete / projection approach. Gooden, Adkins, Sharpton. We had some of that previously (T. Russell comes to mind) but more of the UM LBs from the pre-'01 era were really LBs, not athletes first. The only LBs we've had drafted 4th and above since the Coker era recruits are Spence, McCarthy, Perryman and Shaq. McCarthy, I don't recall his recruitment and he was a lot better athlete than folks realize so not sure how he first the list but the other guys were good, solid LB instinct guys coming in, in my recollect. Lesson? Recruit LBs for LB. Athletes for DE.

Just another way to wonder about our evals. But like I always say, step 1 is knowing what you're looking for. Yes, recognizing fit to spec is core to evaluations. But you gotta start with your spec.

They distorted the stereotypes, sure, but they also happened to be generational athletes.

 

[Dwinstitles]

Let's be real here.

I get what you're getting at, but you just listed physical freaks. We would love to have them, but by and large those types are signing with the top programs these days.

Vince, his body is literally the biggest freaks show of those you listed. Widest bodied man I've ever seen or stood next to. Guy is built like a fantasy books Drawf, just taller. Do they even make clothing his size?

Andre Johnson, another freak with the speed and size combo. We're seeing more of his type each year, but at most there's a couple a year.

DJ Williams, a monster recruit and to this day, our biggest recruit ever. Everybody wanted him, there's no place he couldn't have gone.

Shoot for the sky though. Those traits are prototypical for every team in the land. We want these types of players, but we've gotta beat all the top dogs for them.

Only the blue bloods get those guys now. We are like UCF to those fan bases

 

[cookies]

Our own Clinton Portis was being recruited as a DB by hometown UF. A tape he sent to Miami got the Canes to recruit him as RB. Or so goes the story....

2009 Butch Davis

Clinton was an unbelievable story. The tape we were watching on Clinton we were actually watching the Quarterback on his football team. Late one Monday night early in the season it was like the first of September, it was Clinton's Senior year. The game by accident we picked up to watch the quarterback, Clinton was absolutely spectacular. Kickoff returns for touchdowns. Everytime he touched the ball. I remember one particular sequence he scored a touchdown... it was a long run, a 67-yard run and there was a penalty and they brought it back. They handed him the ball the very next play, and he did exactly the same thing. It was like immediately, "Get on the phone. Find out who this guy is. Do we have any kind of opportunity to recruit him?" We were fortunate with him being right there in Gainesville. For whatever reason, the Univ of Florida wasn't interested. We went full out trying to recruit him. He was a great player in college and a phenomenal player on the next level.

 

[OriginalCanesCanesCanes]

It’s a fair response, except culture and lore have independent existence. There have been miami guys on staff all the way through. Players return. I don’t have an answer but on the other hand, the idea that evals are clean canvas fresh each year isn’t true either. We’ e had our types of error and the question is why and wondering aloud if one reason is the above.

I don’t think that there’s really any evidence that “lore” or some type of osmotic absorption occurs with coaches that have had nothing to do with Miami or very little to do with Miami.

A new head coach is always going to trust himself and the people he employs, with those evaluations. Other than using whatever infrastructure exist, they make their own evaluation decisions. This is what you would expect.

We have had overall less than high-standard coaching, and therefore substandard, or less than ideal standard, evaluations. It only follows.

Or in other words we’ve had the type of coaching, recruiting and evaluations that lead to an average of 8 to 9 win game seasons, at best.