Position Insight Cornerback

[canesfanmpls]

​Forgive me - let me say first - this is the first thread I've started. So if you don't like it go **** yourself.

The intention of this thread (and future positional threads that I would like to start) is simply for EVERYBODY to benefit from the knowledge of others on this forum. I hope to not have pages upon pages of arguments between users. This should have nothing to do with the current regime or scheme but we can use current college and pro players as examples.

Cornerback

Personally I have thought the CB position is the one of the most difficult positions to transition from HS to College and college to the League. The common stereotype is that the CB position are great athletes and receivers with bad hands but lacking height and have mediocre-good tackling abilities.

1. There are press corners and coverage corners. For the avg user these are called what? I hear nickel corner etc.

2. I would assume you want to put a physical corner up against big physical receiver (rather than a cover guy) to jam at the line. How am I right/wrong etc.

3. I would assume you want to put a coverage CB against a slot receiver. What does everybody say?

4. There is always the rare CB blitz. How is the CB chosen? Where the d-line pressure is? Or where the right CB is? How does the opposition factor in?

5. Assuming the CB's switch sides depending who they are covering - what is the ultimate strategy? Do you want to switch with the receiver? Do you want to switch with the defensive scheme or both?

6. Our current corners are:
Ladarius Gunter
Tracy Howard
Artie Burns
Antonio Crawford
Corn Elder
Ray Lewis III
Ryan Mayes
Jordan Tolson
(Am I missing anybody?) (Who fits the mold for the cover corner vs the physical corner etc?)

7. Who is your favorite corner to play for the Canes?

Have at it.

 

[Geo305]

You forgot Lewis.

Cover corner - Howard, Elder and Crawford

Physical corner - Gunter, Burns, Lewis and Mayes

And my favorite. Howard. Been high on him since his Miramar days, expecting a huge year for him this season.

 

[westcoastcanes]

Repped for your second sentence, in your first thread. That said, too long, did not read.

 

[ProjectMKUltra5]

Yeah coming out swinging, **** these *******.

I feel Gunter is the most under appreciated guy on the entire defense. Big physical guy that can tackle and is just rock steady, the Chick of the secondary. I get the hype behind Burns and Elder (Burns specifically, boy can ball) but right now I still wanna see Gunter opposite Howard and Burns in the nickel. These guys played pretty well last year so if they get any help from a pass rush it's gunna be locked down. Overall I'm looking forward to seeing how they grow as a group. Should be fun stuff.

 

[CoCaneHead]

we need more playmakers.. guys who can turn the ball over... I dont see it in howard, bruh kinda slow too. I like burns he has all the physical tools. but his ball skills is bad

 

[canesfanmpls]

we need more playmakers.. guys who can turn the ball over... I dont see it in howard, bruh kinda slow too. I like burns he has all the physical tools. but his ball skills is bad

I see where you're coming from. Howard provided a few interceptions last year. Where do you think he goes from here? Where does he fit in this offense or in the league? My opinion is that he is an above avg tackler as a slot/cover corner.

 

[FrancisSawyer]

Nice topic. A few things,

1) Your best cover corner will not necessarily play over the slot receiver. Yes you want a guy that can cover but your #1CB won't necessarily be lined up over the slot

2) In reality, players have a combination of physical attributes and skill sets. For example your best cover corner can also be great at press.

3) as far as flipping, that depends on the style of D, what coverage shell, and the formation and personnel on offense.

4) I disagree on Tracy not being a playmaker. He is very instinctive and was a true Sophomore last year playing without a pass rush. He still managed to make plays on the ball . He doesn't pick Renner vs UNC last year and we lose that game.

5) it is absolutely imperative that Burns takes the next step. He have the tools to do it all.

6) We could have a Phillip Buchanan clone in Corn Elder. Hoping he starts to come into his own this year.

7) Watch out for Antonio Crawford. Nobody is.talking about him but he can play. He just needed more time to blossom. Remember, he was the first CB the staff turned to against Wake when Campenaro was killing us. Crawford made him disappear.

8) We may have our best group of CB's in a very long time.

 

[usfcane]

Antonio Crawford gona ball out this year, secondary is loaded w talent and depth, time for them to perform.

 

[FrancisSawyer]

One more thing. You mentioned the CB blitz and asked how they decide who does it. Blitzing is a skill as there is a good amount of timing and feel involved. The coaches figure that out in practice then in certain situations against certain formations that CB may be turned loose. Antrel Rolle was great at blitzing from the slot. I remember a game against FSU where we killed them with the slot/shock blitz. FSU never adjusted and Rolle was killing Rix all night. Last year we sent Tracy on a blitz from his outside CB position and the QB never saw it coming.

Deon Bush has flashed skill at blitzing and would like to see him do that much more as well as Jamal Carter. Those two are safeties of course. Of all our CB's, the one that intrigues me the most in terms of blitz potential is Artie Burns. Would love to see him bring it from a nickel/slot position. That cat could do some serious damage.

 

[canedoit]

Antonio Crawford gona ball out this year, secondary is loaded w talent and depth, time for them to perform.

I'm with ya on AC...But depth may have taken a hit with Artie Burns, he left the Hecht wearing a boot. I'm praying to the football gods, he just turned an ankle or minor sprain.

 

[FrancisSawyer]

Antonio Crawford gona ball out this year, secondary is loaded w talent and depth, time for them to perform.

I'm with ya on AC...But depth may have taken a hit with Artie Burns, he left the Hecht wearing a boot. I'm praying to the football gods, he just turned an ankle or minor sprain.

Not good news. Lets hope it's nothing serious. We need him.

 

[MoSikes]

Just one (long) comment about nickel corners/cover corners: I think nickel corners are really their own breed of player these days. Just like a slot receiver has special skills, so must a nickel guy have. All corners need to have hips and feet, but NBs have to have running back feet. On top of that, these days nickel corners have to be strong because sub packages are being used a lot more than on 3/long like they used to.

To me, the modern nickel should look a lot like a 3rd down RB, short (5'8-5'10) and solidly build so in the 190 range for that height. Too tall and it's less likely he can change direction quick enough. Too light and he can't handle the run responsibilities for a creative defense.

The one thing they don't need is long speed, because their target areas are short routes, if they cover those they've done their jobs. Guys like Lamarcus Joyner (who I think is a great player) are going to find success in the league now playing there while they would have been overlooked ten years ago.

 

[Geo305]

Just one (long) comment about nickel corners/cover corners: I think nickel corners are really their own breed of player these days. Just like a slot receiver has special skills, so must a nickel guy have. All corners need to have hips and feet, but NBs have to have running back feet. On top of that, these days nickel corners have to be strong because sub packages are being used a lot more than on 3/long like they used to.

To me, the modern nickel should look a lot like a 3rd down RB, short (5'8-5'10) and solidly build so in the 190 range for that height. Too tall and it's less likely he can change direction quick enough. Too light and he can't handle the run responsibilities for a creative defense.

The one thing they don't need is long speed, because their target areas are short routes, if they cover those they've done their jobs. Guys like Lamarcus Joyner (who I think is a great player) are going to find success in the league now playing there while they would have been overlooked ten years ago.

That is a role staff is working Dallas into.

I can see Artie playing it too. Staff is working Deon into it as well, but I view Dallas being more comfortable in that role as a nickel/safety.

Also as for Corn Elder, I had made that comparison to Phillip Buchanon for his ceiling a while back and still feel it's spot on. The speed, athleticism, cover corner.

I also made comparison for Artie having a Antrel Rolle ceiling.

And Tracy as true as it gets for cover corners. He's been playing with a bad line too, last two years. But Tracy can lock it down and has the ball skills. Does he run 4.4 or under, no. Runs a 4.5 but what he misses with that, makes up for in his cover and ball skills.

Gunter very solid and will get a look by quite a few teams in the nfl for his size.

Also have heard Antonio has a lot of potential but must become consistent.

 

[sstcane]

Many teams designate Field Corner and Boundry Corner.

Gunter is a classic Boundry corner that plays the short side of the field. They're usually bigger and use the sidelines to their advantage.

Tracy is a Field corner that has more space to cover, but the throws are longer so it takes more time to get there.

The Nickel Back has to be quicker because he can't leverage the sidelines and the receivers have 2 way goes vs him.

Blitzing is usually done by the Boundry corner or the nickel back because the field is too far away.

I think that if we get a better rush this year the DB's will ball out. The practice reports seem to tell me that the fronts are being more diaruptive this year, which is huge for the D.

 

[cubin10]

Cheers to the OP, good thread with a lot of perspective, thanks to all for sharing.

 

[MoSikes]

Just one (long) comment about nickel corners/cover corners: I think nickel corners are really their own breed of player these days. Just like a slot receiver has special skills, so must a nickel guy have. All corners need to have hips and feet, but NBs have to have running back feet. On top of that, these days nickel corners have to be strong because sub packages are being used a lot more than on 3/long like they used to.

To me, the modern nickel should look a lot like a 3rd down RB, short (5'8-5'10) and solidly build so in the 190 range for that height. Too tall and it's less likely he can change direction quick enough. Too light and he can't handle the run responsibilities for a creative defense.

The one thing they don't need is long speed, because their target areas are short routes, if they cover those they've done their jobs. Guys like Lamarcus Joyner (who I think is a great player) are going to find success in the league now playing there while they would have been overlooked ten years ago.

That is a role staff is working Dallas into.

I can see Artie playing it too. Staff is working Deon into it as well, but I view Dallas being more comfortable in that role as a nickel/safety.

I agree with Dallas being a great fit for the nickel spot. He's got that size to come up and make plays on stretch runs while being athletic enough to cover short distances. It brings up another facet too, you need a guy who is smart enough to recognize tendencies to give him an edge covering these slot routes.

 

[dg151]

Building the Perfect Beast: The ideal nickelback

Though some teams implemented three-cornerback and three-safety looks in the 1990s and early 2000s (the Green Bay Packers did so in the Mike Holmgren and Fritz Shurmur era, as NFL.com's Bucky Brooks points out here), a team's slot defender used to be the guy without a true position. Perhaps too small to mix it up with outside receivers or too slow to engage in trail speed battles with downfield burners, this cornerback was a substitution player at best, and an expendable chip at worst. Now, the typical nickel corner is a pure starter and is treated as such. And this player has a unique skillset.

Matt Bowen, who played safety in the NFL from 2000 through '06 and now writes brilliantly about Xs and Os for Bleacher Report, told me flat-out that in the modern NFL, the slot defender might be the most important defensive back on the field. In 2005, when he played with the Washington Redskins, Bowen was part of defensive packages that defensive coordinator Gregg Williams called "Ruby," in which there were three defensive linemen, two linebackers and six defensive backs. Williams used the late Sean Taylor as the point man in the defense -- the multi-position safety/corner hybrid -- because Taylor had such freakish athletic ability and field sense. Now, players like New Orleans' Kenny Vaccaro and Arizona's Tyrann Mathieu carry on that legacy in different ways. And as Bowen said, there's so much to that position; you're ideally taking equally from cornerback and safety skillsets and basically creating a new archetype

"To play nickel now? I think it's really hard. You have to play the two-way go [option routes in which the receiver can turn inside or outside based on coverage] inside the numbers, you have to be able to tackle, and you have to be able to blitz. And blitz is a technique, just like playing man-to-man or running routes. You need practice at that. You can't run in there straight up and down like a pencil, or you'll get decapitated. Because as the nickel, sometimes you blitz, and the tackle is set up on you. How do you beat him? You've got to get him back on his heels -- you set him up, almost like a basketball player driving to the hole.
"All that stuff takes practice. It takes reps. So, those new nickels in today's NFL? They're football players. They have to do everything. It's not just, 'OK, we've got a small DB; let's put him in the slot and we can hide him there.' No, no. I think the nickel right now, in terms of the secondary -- he may be the most important position on the field. In my opinion, if you don't have a [good] nickel [defender], you can't win."

Harris, who has played in the league since 2011 and has been Denver's slot weapon since Day 1, has said that his position provides new reads for quarterbacks to grasp, adding to his positional value.

“I know just from talking to Peyton [Manning], when he’s trying to figure out a defense he looks right at me to tell him exactly what type we’re in," Harris said. "So I’m constantly moving around, showing Peyton different looks, showing him that I’m blitzing and then dropping back in coverage. So since I know that he’s always watching me and trying to figure it out, that’s a huge position. Nickel is definitely a huge position which a lot of quarterbacks are looking at to find what type of defense we’re in. Pretty much, that’s all we run. That’s pretty much our main defense, really.”

Even those teams that don't run a lot of nickel are looking to find specific attributes for those players. The Seahawks used five or more defensive backs just 43 percent of the time last season (which you can do when you have Richard Sherman, Earl Thomas and Kam Chancellor), but defensive coordinator Dan Quinn said that he and the team's coaching and scouting groups value those attributes more than ever. Even when you have a once-in-a-generation secondary, you never know when the fifth guy will come in handy.
"There's special coaching that goes into that player," Quinn said. "He plays near the line of scrimmage, he's got run fit techniques that he has to do, so he's a really valuable guy. And he has to have special quickness to play inside, because so many of the guys who play in the slot have that quickness, where maybe a taller, longer guy doesn't have that kind of matchup stuff. He's unique, so when we're evaluating players, we'll say, 'OK -- he's a corner who can play nickel.' And when you're looking for guys who can add versatility, it's nice."

Long but good read on nickel defenses/nickel backs.

 

[LuCane]

Just one (long) comment about nickel corners/cover corners: I think nickel corners are really their own breed of player these days. Just like a slot receiver has special skills, so must a nickel guy have. All corners need to have hips and feet, but NBs have to have running back feet. On top of that, these days nickel corners have to be strong because sub packages are being used a lot more than on 3/long like they used to.

To me, the modern nickel should look a lot like a 3rd down RB, short (5'8-5'10) and solidly build so in the 190 range for that height. Too tall and it's less likely he can change direction quick enough. Too light and he can't handle the run responsibilities for a creative defense.

The one thing they don't need is long speed, because their target areas are short routes, if they cover those they've done their jobs. Guys like Lamarcus Joyner (who I think is a great player) are going to find success in the league now playing there while they would have been overlooked ten years ago.

Nice insight. I think it's right on the money. The S and Nickel positions have become much more about instincts and ability to process information. You have some less than stellar (relatively) athletes in the NFL because the defenses are so complex and these guys are valuable. Dallas Crawford may find an opportunity somewhere, if he can prove to be this type of player.

 

[dg151]

I want Tim Irvin as a nickel baaaaaaaaaaad.

 

[MoSikes]

Great example of what I was talking about before with the new Nickelback prototype, Robenson Therezie:



Kid's even from Miami (though apparently no offer from the Canes). 5'9, 210, played some RB at Auburn before he settled in to this nickel spot in their 425. This is the kind of kid that NFL teams are going to start caring a lot more about.