OT- Have athletes gotten worse in the NBA/MLB?

[OrdunaDrive]

I always completely shut down this conversation by simply asking something very simple.

Would you take the 92 dream team, or the 2020 olympic "dream" team?

if anyone says 2020 you're just delusional or too young to remember.

You always completely shut the conversation down by asking a hypothetical about a team that doesn't exist yet and then ignoring any response that you don't agree with? That does works, I guess.

 

[User-4525]

I agree with BJ. Klay would be great despite his relatively average athleticism

B.J. Armstrong Has Klay Thompson over LeBron, Kawhi Excelling Most in Jordan Era

The NBA game has changed over the past 30 years, but former All-Star B.J. Armstrong thinks Golden State Warriors guard Klay Thompson is the current player most suited to excel during the Michael Jordan era...

bleacherreport.com

One the players I think would excel most in that era would be Klay Thompson. Klay Thompson, I think, is equipped to play in that era because of the way he plays. He's a big guard, I think he has some physicality of the game and he played the game in the way that they all played. We ran plays where the 2-guard had to provide spacing and you had to be able to take your matchup. I think he was big enough to take that matchup every single night. I just think he would be a player that would fit into that era beautifully because of how he plays the game now. I think it translates.

You look at LeBron James, you look at Kawhi Leonard, you look at these guys, but Klay Thompson to me is a player that I said: You know what? He was a prototypical 2 guard that would fit very nicely into that era and the way they played the game back then.

 

[User-4525]

What Luka Doncic is now, Penny was in ‘93. Looked a little different though:

Luka doesn't have that same bounce that made Penny, Penny. We never got to see prime, healthy Penny as the number #1 option unfortunately. Penny is a 1of1, so is Luka. Special, special players.

Cade Cunningham is more comparable to Penny Hardaway (also Brandon Roy) than Luka is. 6'7 lead guard McDonald's All American senior who dominated at FIBA U19 last summer despite a poor shooting week. Not worried about the jumper long term with his good mechanics and work ethic. Going to Ok. State this fall

 

[User-4525]

Think I already said this, but the next step for Luka is getting his 3% to Harden levels of 35-36%. Once he is hitting even more of these type of stepbacks, the Mavericks will be a true contender. Mavericks already had the best offense in the league this year by a good margin. Really interested to see his shooting numbers and defense in the playoffs this year.

 

[User-4525]

 

[DMoney]

Think I already said this, but the next step for Luka is getting his 3% to Harden levels of 35-36%. Once he is hitting even more of these type of stepbacks, the Mavericks will be a true contender. Mavericks already had the best offense in the league this year by a good margin. Really interested to see his shooting numbers and defense in the playoffs this year.

I had Doncic and Trae Young as the top 2 players in that draft because their games fit this era.

Of course, the knock on them was athleticism. That’s why they went behind run-and-jump guys like Ayton and Bagley. But that’s an outdated approach for the reasons outlined in the OP.

 

[User-4525]

Matt Barnes asked Penny who his player comp was for today's game. Penny responded with

'Ben Simmons in transition. Not the rest of the game but in transition and how he pushes the tempo. The finesse part around the rim, big guard.'

 

[User-4525]

I had Doncic and Trae Young as the top 2 players in that draft because their games fit this era.

Of course, the knock on them was athleticism. That’s why they went behind run-and-jump guys like Ayton and Bagley. But that’s an outdated approach for the reasons outlined in the OP.

They are both perfect for the modern era because of the high number of pick and rolls that are run. I remember you advocating for Luka > Ayton as the #1 pick. I think most smart people couldn't believe the MVP and champion of the Euroleague would get passed up by guys who couldn't bring their teams to the Final Four in college. Ayton and Bagley are both serious talents, but Luka was in unprecedented territory.

After their top 5 pick this year, the Hawks will have built their foundation around Trae. I'm not sure what the ceiling for a team with Trae Young as the #1 is but we'll see. A lot depends on Reddish and Hunter, who both played good defense so far. I didn't do a personal ranking of the draft but two years in I would put SGA above Trae for long term potential. I have my eye on MPJ as the guy who people look back in five years and couldn't believe he fell to 14 and the Clippers passed on him. He can do serious, serious damage when he's healthy and Mike Malone gives him real minutes. He can be the difference maker for the Nuggets because he can take so much pressure off of Jokic and Jamal.

The 2018 Draft is the best draft since the 2003 draft. The first round is loaded with solid players very few busts.

 

[caneshomer]

Had this discussion with some friends and wanted to bring it to the board: Have players gotten less athletic in the NBA and MLB since the 1980s and 1990s?

Football players have gotten more athletic since the rules began favoring passing. But in basketball, the rules have been favoring more of a European game based on shooting and less man-to-man defense. Stars like Curry, Harden and Doncic are extremely skilled but only average athletes by NBA standards. Would a player like Duncan Robinson survive in the 80s and 90s with the amount of minutes he plays?

Same in MLB. The game is phasing out steals and there is less contact, which means less athletic defense. Walks and homers are king. Has the game lost athleticism?

NBA Yes, Basebal not so much, Pictures throw harder

 

[AllAboutTheU]

That’s why they went behind run-and-jump guys like Ayton and Bagley

Doesn't this go against your analysis of the emphasis being on "shooting" too? These guys went top 2, against the revolution of guards/playmakers and the two teams seemingly have worse futures due to it.

 

[DMoney]

Doesn't this go against your analysis of the emphasis being on "shooting" too? These guys went top 2, against the revolution of guards/playmakers and the two teams seemingly have worse futures due to it.

Those were two old-school decisions (driven by the Suns owner and Vlade Divac, respectively) which stood out like a sore thumb at the time.

It’s a consensus among GMs that shooting has never been more valued. Non-shooters are now liabilities even if they are exceptional everywhere else.

 

[AllAboutTheU]

Those were two old-school decisions (driven by the Suns owner and Vlade Divac, respectively) which stood out like a sore thumb at the time.

It’s a consensus among GMs that shooting has never been more valued. Non-shooters are now liabilities even if they are exceptional everywhere else.

Eh, Sarver went with Ayton because of the UA connection, not because he was old school. Divac seems to have some issue with Doncic’s father that clouded his judgment and will eventually cost him his job. You’re right, they stood out like a sore thumb because they didn’t pick the obviously better guys, despite perceived physical knocks. GMs going with the freak athletes over the better players isn’t a new phenomenon, though, you can go through various drafts to see that.

 

[User-4525]

Luka's Secret Superpower: The Overlooked Athletic Trait That Makes Him So Good

The 20-year-old phenom is playing at an MVP level despite not boasting blazing speed or an eye-popping vertical jump. But in this obscure category, he's elite.

www.stack.com

Luka possesses an elite ability to go from 60 to 0, something you might use during a step-back or a crossover," Eric Leidersdorf, Director of Biomechanics at P3 Applied Sports Science, explains in this video. "Luka possesses the ability to create a significant amount of force during the eccentric or deceleration phase of a counter-movement jump. This is a quality integral to change of direction performance.

While Harden ranks in the 99th percentile of P3's NBA database for both eccentric force output and eccentric rate of force development, Doncic isn't far behind, ranking in the 92nd and 93rd percentiles, respectively.

"Luka's one of these guys that his most glaring performance advantages, his superpowers, are not the things that have traditionally defined athleticism in a basketball player," Marcus Elliot, founder and director of P3, told The Athletic. "(That fact) makes him the perfect athlete for teams to get confused with (and) make bad decisions about his athleticism."


Luka's elite deceleration and change of direction skills are key to his signature move—the step-back jumper.

He's got a system that can stay in balance when he does that, when he's accelerating really fast with big force. That means his trunk is stable enough, his hips are stable enough, his higher systems; it's not enough (for) that to stop. You've got to be able to stop in control. He does have that," says Elliott.

Luka's physical profile and athleticism got better in year 2

 

[LuCane]

Luka doesn't have that same bounce that made Penny, Penny. We never got to see prime, healthy Penny as the number #1 option unfortunately. Penny is a 1of1, so is Luka. Special, special players.

Cade Cunningham is more comparable to Penny Hardaway (also Brandon Roy) than Luka is. 6'7 lead guard McDonald's All American senior who dominated at FIBA U19 last summer despite a poor shooting week. Not worried about the jumper long term with his good mechanics and work ethic. Going to Ok. State this fall

Those are solid comparisons and very rational takes. Someone knows his basketball. Good stuff. For some reason, I thought you were much younger.

 

[User-4525]

Eh, Sarver went with Ayton because of the UA connection, not because he was old school. Divac seems to have some issue with Doncic’s father that clouded his judgment and will eventually cost him his job. You’re right, they stood out like a sore thumb because they didn’t pick the obviously better guys, despite perceived physical knocks. GMs going with the freak athletes over the better players isn’t a new phenomenon, though, you can go through various drafts to see that.

And athletes have also fallen in the draft. Shawn Kemp fell. Vince Carter was better than the four guys taken ahead of him. McGrady went 9th. Two great athletes, who are also extremely skilled, just went 1 & 2 in Zion and Ja.

We are about to see a bunch of guards/wings who all shot below 35% from 3 go in the lottery: Cole Anthony (best shooter of the group, barely under 35%), Lamelo Ball, Isaac Okoro, RJ Hampton, Tyrese Maxey, Anthony Edwards, and Killian Hayes. I agree about the trend on valuing shooting, but it is still interesting to see.

 

[AllAboutTheU]

And athletes have also fallen in the draft. Shawn Kemp fell. Vince Carter was better than the four guys taken ahead of him. Two great athletes, who are also extremely skilled, just went 1 & 2 in Zion and Ja.

We are about to see a bunch of guards/wings who all shot below 35% from 3 go in the lottery: Cole Anthony (best shooter of the group, barely under 35%), Lamelo Ball, Isaac Okoro, RJ Hampton, Tyrese Maxey, Anthony Edwards, and Killian Hayes. I agree about the trend on valuing shooting, but it is still interesting to see.

As much as teams value shooting, they historically value shot creation even more. If his theory about shooting being the prime skill needed then we the projected lotto wouldn’t look like it does. The elite guys can all shoot. You just need to be a respectable perimeter threat as a role guy.

 

[User-4525]

As much as teams value shooting, they historically value shot creation even more. If his theory about shooting being the prime skill needed then we the projected lotto wouldn’t look like it does. The elite guys can all shoot. You just need to be a respectable perimeter threat as a role guy.

Agree. Shot creation for oneself and the 4 other teammates is the highest offensive skill valued by GMs

 

[ALLoverCANE]

Had this discussion with some friends and wanted to bring it to the board: Have players gotten less athletic in the NBA and MLB since the 1980s and 1990s?

Football players have gotten more athletic since the rules began favoring passing. But in basketball, the rules have been favoring more of a European game based on shooting and less man-to-man defense. Stars like Curry, Harden and Doncic are extremely skilled but only average athletes by NBA standards. Would a player like Duncan Robinson survive in the 80s and 90s with the amount of minutes he plays?

Same in MLB. The game is phasing out steals and there is less contact, which means less athletic defense. Walks and homers are king. Has the game lost athleticism?

Someone else probably already said this in this massively long thread, but I would imagine the improvements in sports science, nutrition, etc. over the past 20-30 years probably outweigh every other factor.

 

[bshaw28]

I had Doncic and Trae Young as the top 2 players in that draft because their games fit this era.

Of course, the knock on them was athleticism. That’s why they went behind run-and-jump guys like Ayton and Bagley. But that’s an outdated approach for the reasons outlined in the OP.

That's 2018. So who were your Top 2 players headed into the last 5 drafts?

2019 - Instead of Zion/Ja Morant - were you more of a RJ Barrett/De'Andre Hunter type guy?
2017 - Instead of Ball/Tatum - were you more of a Lauri Markannen type guy?
2016 - Instead of Simmons/Ingram - were you more of a Jamal Murray/Sabonis type guy?

Since athleticism is on outdated approach - who were your guys in those drafts?

 

[Tijuana]

I wish I was sponsored by Converse. I think I'm gonna go be in the NBA.