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OT- Have athletes gotten worse in the NBA/MLB?

gogeta4 said:
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Changing the defensive rules in ‘01 changed the types of inside guys.
 
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Canedude08 said:
There have always been different rules for stars. I guess people forget that Jordan stretched the hand check rules back in the day, utilizing his freakishly large hands to basically guide players around the court. You really think that had anyone else pulled that move on Byron Russell, they wouldn't have gotten called for something?
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Stretching hand check rules and taking as many steps as necessary to get to the hoop is apples to oranges in comparison.
 
DMoney said:
Sixers need a Kemba-type who can create his own shot.

Personally, I would trade Embiid. Colangelo was right about him. Doesn’t have it between the ears to be a franchise guy.
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Sixers fan here, and I agree with all of the above.

I called for Kemba all summer. And I preach trading embiid and putting guys that can space the floor around Ben. Ben is great in transition, but basically becomes a 4 in the half court offense.
 
Stretching hand check rules and taking as many steps as necessary to get to the hoop is apples to oranges in comparison.
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Let me guess, you think that the euro step is a travel, right? Guys have gotten significantly better at stretching the rule book in regards to steps, they utilize their footwork a lot better than guys like Jordan did. It's amazing when you look at the evolution of the Euro Step, and realize that it was legal for years, no one thought to apply it in that way at the NBA level, outside of some foreign players. Refs blow calls, both then and now. The only difference is that we can see every single game, every single call. We couldn't see that back then, because every game wasn't televised to **** near everyone.
 
On aggregate the athletes are better overall now in both the NBA and MLB - but the overall athletic improvement is dwarfed by the increase in overall skill level in both sports. There is a huge difference in overall skill level in those sports compared to 30 years ago - a 2020 NBA or MLB that time travels back to 1990 rolls to the championship with ease.
There‘s a lot of romanticism of the past by guys my age (mid-40s) and older for the pro sports they came of age watching. We all tend to remember the highlights and forget the flaws - in both the gameplay and the players.
 
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DMoney said:
Human beings have not evolved in 25 years. There were elite athletes back then, too. That's why it's important to note what is emphasized, and what isn't.

In terms of baseball, the super-athlete with supreme defense and elite basestealing is no longer as valued as the bad-bodied hitter who walks a ton and hits. That's the classic Billy Beane v. Lenny Dykstra comparison in Moneyball.

In basketball, it has become more of a European game. It is no coincidence Europeans like Doncic and Jokic (who lack explosive athleticism) are having so much more success. They used to get eaten alive.
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What has evolved over the last 25 years, is training techniques and the importance and knowledge of nutrition.
 
AllAboutTheU said:
James Harden has elite deceleration. Better than WRs who can slow down and get in and out of their breaks on a dime. Talking about who can “keep up” with Michael Jordan does not prove anything. MJ, Drexler, Dominique would be great athletes in any era. So would a laundry list of guys from this era.

All mentions of testing with respect to these NBA guys is silly. They don’t prepare for these combines like NFL guys do. The on floor stuff is way more important to teams.
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No, not even close. He’s too tall and lacks that level of twitch. You can’t name one NFL guy ever with Harden’s size and combine numbers that was known for being elite at coming out of his breaks. Forget the combine the numbers, just 6’5 220. He’s good because of his level of coordination with the ball, not raw athleticism.

It’s laughable that you think that most of the NFL guys needed combine training to put up better static vert, sprint times, and combine numbers compared to NBA players. NFL players have been quality pros and Olympic gold medalists in other sports than football. That requires more than a different type of training.
 
Tetragrammaton Cane said:
The Sports Gene is first class hackery. Absolute garbage. Epstein is a joke.
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I don't disagree with you, most of it is **** you'd expect from late 1800s social darwinists. He legit goes into APE INDEX in the NBA Chapter.

However, I feel his best points are in the technology being used by today's athlete as well as on the "field"...when he outlines the differences between the shoes and track they run on between Bolt and say Jesse Owens, his point is makes sense and is sound. The overall point in suggesting the book is it does outline a lot of key differences that are not biological as to the differences between the athletes of today and yesterday.

His other social darwinist racist takes aren't for me...but there is some good points throughout.
 
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Tim Grover, 2014

"I can’t imagine the results we would have had twenty years ago—with Michael and Scottie and Olajuwon and Barkley and so many others—using the science we use now to train Kobe and Dwyane and all the rest of my clients. "
 
Baseball players are more athletic now with all the advances. The issue is baseball loses “premier” athletes to football. As for the style of play that all has to do with what baseball deems valuable. Analytics took the steals, bunts, and small ball out of the game. To me, it’s not a direct correlation.
 
Imo Baseball players are certainly more athletic across the board. You should look at the athletic profile and background of the top players. All lot of high level dual sport guys. The game just isn’t popular but if you follow the game these young players are very exciting to watch...correlating athletic ability to big fly ball and small ball is a mistake. Playing small was never aimed to highlight your team’s Athletic poweress more than it was about playing to your players ability at the plate. If u lacked power in your lineup you played situational small ball. In today game 1-9 have pop to take anyone deep at anytime So u see it less. If your into baseball R2-c2 on YouTube with CC sabathia is a great watch and Cc interviews a lot of today’s young stars and give great insight..if your into baseball talk y’all should check it out

NBA players are bigger, stronger, faster more skilled..htf can u watch steph, harden and Luka and conclude they lack athleticism is beyond me. America’s best athletes tend to be trending towards the game of basketball nowadays.

football players honestly idk..I’d lean towards it being about the same.

**** soccer

**** hockey

golfers are also more athletic lol
 
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Kyle Liburd said:
Tim Grover, 2014

"I can’t imagine the results we would have had twenty years ago—with Michael and Scottie and Olajuwon and Barkley and so many others—using the science we use now to train Kobe and Dwyane and all the rest of my clients. "
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In other words, imagine if we had today’s training methods with the superior athletes of the past.
 
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DMoney said:
In other words, imagine if we had today’s training methods with the superior athletes of the past.
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MJ, Zo, Dominique, Malone, etc hit the weights hard. Was it state of the art, scientific training? Not compared to today. But that 90's era had some jacked dudes on the floor. There was a lull in that style of S&C training at the prep level which resulted into NBA players not really getting into S&C until the NBA, even with 1-3 years of college prep.

When my dad started training athletes with BFS in the early 90's- baseball, basketball, and football lived in the weight room at high schools in Dade. Then basketball and baseball got away from non-sport specific training (ie. basketball just practiced and played AAU games and travel games and baseball did the same with Legion and travel + time in the cage vs the weight room).
 
There's specific/tangible reasons as to why guys in the football world are more athletic today.
*Speed began to take precedent over size/strength.
*The game evolved and was no longer played in a phone booth. The days of the swole, stiff, hard-hitting 245lb Linebackers who benched 400+ pounds and only played tackle-to-tackle were gone. They needed to be able run, so coaches started bulking up Safeties and moving them to LB. Same evolution happened with the DL position.
*Olympic lifting was introduced to the football world, as well as other methods of development, that were implemented to create a more explosive, twitchy athlete.
*Over the years more and more emphasis was put on underwear Olympics (aka combines) because people figured out that generally more explosive guys = better football players for today's game.
Football players today are treated like cattle. It's a meat market.

In the past 30 years or so there's been a bigger emphasis put on EXPLOSIVENESS and lean muscle mass. Sizes (height + weight) haven't changed much, except maybe at the outside WR positon, but that's mainly for strategic reasons. Guys on the front-7 have gotten leaner, we see a lot more 240lb-280lb guys with abs today, mainly due to the emphasis put on core strength and nutrition. Forties, verticals and broads have probably gotten better in 30 years...but again...you can attribute that to specific reasons. (not simply "guys have evolved")


So with that said...

What about the NBA game has changed over the last 30 years that would lead them to having better athletes?
Small ball? Big guys playing on the perimeter? That's not "better athletes", that's simply a strategic change in the game that has forced bigger guys to refine their perimeter skill. (and completely abandon the post skill that the older players spent so much time on)

Are NBA guys running faster today, jumping higher today, etc? Based on what? Are there numbers to support this? Or are yall just going by the eye test. (which is subjective and inaccurate)

And since the basketball world doesn't put a premium on athletic testing and explosive measurements like the football world does, why would one believe that they (the basketball world) are creating SIGNIFICANTLY better athletes? You're telling me it's pure evolution? Humans haven't changed that much (physically) since the 80's.

I assure you, if the basketball world put more of an emphasis on creating better/more explosive athletes these past 30 years, their guys wouldn't need 2 steps to register a pedestrian low/mid-30's vertical. Yes I'm aware that the vertical isn't the end-all-be-all of athleticism, but it is a good measure of raw explosiveness and athletic ability.

I mean, if you say NBA players are better athletes today you have to give reasons why. Attribute it to SOMETHING. It can't just be your eye test.
 
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DMoney said:
Should we talk about Joe Harris, Duncan Robinson, Nemanja Bjelica, Jonas Valancuianas, Domantas Sabonis, Cody Zeller, Brook Lopez, Cedi Osman and the rest?

It's better to compare the top guys because the top guys should include some of your top athletes. That was certainly true in the mid-90s. Not as true today.
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You know how I know there is less athleticism in today's game? It's the elephant in the room and I'll preface it by saying I'm a 5'9" white guy. There are a lot of European white guys shooting threes in today's game.
 
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Coach Macho said:
There's specific/tangible reasons as to why guys in the football world are more athletic today.
*Speed began to take precedent over size/strength.
*The game evolved and was no longer played in a phone booth. The days of the swole, stiff, hard-hitting 245lb Linebackers who benched 400+ pounds and only played tackle-to-tackle were gone. They needed to be able run, so coaches started bulking up Safeties and moving them to LB. Same evolution happened with the DL position.
*Olympic lifting was introduced to the football world, as well as other methods of development, that were implemented to create a more explosive, twitchy athlete.
*Over the years more and more emphasis was put on underwear Olympics (aka combines) because people figured out that generally more explosive guys = better football players for today's game.
Football players today are treated like cattle. It's a meat market.

In the past 30 years or so there's been a bigger emphasis put on EXPLOSIVENESS and lean muscle mass. Sizes (height + weight) haven't changed much, except maybe at the outside WR positon, but that's mainly for strategic reasons. Guys on the front-7 have gotten leaner, we see a lot more 240lb-280lb guys with abs today, mainly due to the emphasis put on core strength and nutrition. Forties, verticals and broads have probably gotten better in 30 years...but again...you can attribute that to specific reasons. (not simply "guys have evolved")


So with that said...

What about the NBA game has changed over the last 30 years that would lead them to having better athletes?
Small ball? Big guys playing on the perimeter? That's not "better athletes", that's simply a strategic change in the game that has forced bigger guys to refine their perimeter skill. (and completely abandon the post skill that the older players spent so much time on)

Are NBA guys running faster today, jumping higher today, etc? Based on what? Are their numbers to show this? Or yall just going by the eye test. (which is subjective and inaccurate)

And since the basketball world doesn't put a premium on athletic testing and explosive measurements like the football world does, why would one believe that they're (the basketball world) are creating SIGNIFICANTLY better athletes? You're telling me it's pure evolution? Humans haven't changed that much (physically) since the 80's.

I assure you, if the basketball world put more of an emphasis on creating better/more explosive athletes these past 30 years, their guys wouldn't need 2 steps to register a pedestrian low/mid-30's vertical. Yes I'm aware that the vertical isn't the end-all-be-all of athleticism, but it is a good measure of raw explosiveness and athletic ability.

I mean, if you say NBA players are better athletes today you have to give reasons why. Attribute it to SOMETHING. It can't just be your eye test.
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The eye test is also now in HD compared to fuzzy pixelated video and these guys post their workouts today so we know what they do and it makes us feel like they are doing crazy athletic things. We had no clue what the guys were doing back in the 90s unless they were in a "got milk" commercial.
 
TOcane said:
You know how I know there is less athleticism in today's game? It's the elephant in the room and I'll preface it by saying I'm a 5'9" white guy. There are a lot of European white guys shooting threes in today's game.
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Who are these European white guys?
 
DMoney said:
In other words, imagine if we had today’s training methods with the superior athletes of the past.
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You're twisting it to fit your narrative. He is literally saying the science has gotten better so the athletes today can expand their athletic potential like they couldn't before. He isn't choosing between one side or another, although his 90s athletes are obviously a stronger group when compared to 2 people
 
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