Lu, et al... ? re: defensive schemes

ghost2

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In an effort to steer us all away from the jingly keys of who caught what in the scrimmage or the merits of Alabama's defense, I was wondering if someone could talk about how much more zone we might see this year, and what our specific zone schemes might look like in D'Nofrio's system. Where does the pressure come from? What are the DB assignments? And who specifically on the roater would you see thriving in a zone defensive scheme?


Thank you!
 
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In an effort to steer us all away from the jingly keys of who caught what in the scrimmage or the merits of Alabama's defense, I was wondering if someone could talk about how much more zone we might see this year, and what our specific zone schemes might look like in D'Nofrio's system. Where does the pressure come from? What are the DB assignments? And who specifically on the roater would you see thriving in a zone defensive scheme?


Thank you!
Thats what we saw about 98% of the time last year. Hopefully our corners will be better this year where we can lock em up man to man more
 
Not Lu, but I think we're going towards more man coverage as opposed to zone.

I've said it on here before--any opposing OC worth their salt will eat up a one-dimensional pass defense. If we run strictly man and press all day, run playaction with deep routes (with safety valves underneath) and pick on the safeties in the deep halves all day long. If we run zone all the time, run curls and option routes with the ability to sit in the soft parts of the zone and just move the chains all day long.

We ran mostly zone last season (see VT game for proof) and got picked apart because the opposing OC's knew we weren't built to play much man coverage. When we did run man coverages (with McGee/Chambers/M. Williams, mind you), most of the time, we got burnt.

The goal for D'Onofrio will not be to either be a zone defense or a man defense, but to be good enough at both that we can mix up coverages and confuse the opposing QB, and make sure the opposing OC can't peg what coverages we're predominantly in.

I see Howard and Gunter so far as being capable of playing man coverage with Telemaque and Rodgers over the top. I think by at least mid-year, we see someone like Crawford or Finnie as the 3rd CB in the nickel package. I believe McGee will be in the rotation at CB, but unless he steps it up, he won't be a key piece and could end up with as little as half the PT he got last season. I believe Rodgers to be an upgrade in coverage at the S spot left open by Ray Ray's departure. He wasn't good against FSU in that game, but showed promise...he made breaks on the football, but was just late...and a lot of that was inexperience.

The key is--if Howard/Gunter are upgrades at CB, and we can be more aggressive in the secondary, then the LB's job in coverage will be easier, as they can focus more on shutting down the middle of the field sideline-to-sideline as opposed to helping with WR's that cross their face in zone schemes.
 
I remember Coach D saying on wqam... that we are still running zone schemes, b/c in the Pros you can't run man-to-man all day, or you'll get beat bad. He also said that our DBs are going to play off the line mostly during, what you consider are running downs. So that our DBs can help with run support if somebody breaks through the d-line and Lbs.

He went on to say he also doesn't want to make our defense about ONE man being the person responsible for preventing or giving up a TD or big play. I kind of took all that in to mean that Coach D is probably running more Zone than Man still... I don't know if I'd like that idea a lot but we will have to see how it goes. We do have WAY better personnel than last year so I think Coach D will be willing to gamble more with man to man coverage than he did last year.
 
most of the time last year we played a soft cover 2 zone because no cornerback could play man to man. this limited our ability to blitz and implement other schemes. at its basic, it was keep everything in front of you, dont get burned and let's see if we get lucky and they can stop themselves. it was because of lack of talent and because of the suspensions.

with some talent coming in at CB, albeit unproven, we should be able to run some man to man in your face at the line, have corner blitzes, etc. we still have a lot of vulnerability, but it seems less than last year.
 
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i think that we must also realize that personell doesn't necessarily mean db's. If there is no pressure from your front four, you can run zone, man, a mix, if the qb has time it will not matter and someone will be open. If our DT's can not apply pressure up the middle and/or our DEs not push the qb out of the pocket, it is suicide to run man. We are better off talent wise in the secondary, but i feel his comments related more to the Dline. Both him and golden said that we have no pressure from the DT. They are not breaking down the middle gaps.

Something to consider.
 
We are definitely going to be creative on defense. Especially if one of the DE's gets injured at any point. But I think it's what the staff is going for honestly. If you look at the guys we recruit. I would like to see guys that move all over the place so the offense never knows where they're coming from.
 
I remember Coach D saying on wqam... that we are still running zone schemes, b/c in the Pros you can't run man-to-man all day, or you'll get beat bad. He also said that our DBs are going to play off the line mostly during, what you consider are running downs. So that our DBs can help with run support if somebody breaks through the d-line and Lbs.

He went on to say he also doesn't want to make our defense about ONE man being the person responsible for preventing or giving up a TD or big play. I kind of took all that in to mean that Coach D is probably running more Zone than Man still... I don't know if I'd like that idea a lot but we will have to see how it goes. We do have WAY better personnel than last year so I think Coach D will be willing to gamble more with man to man coverage than he did last year.


Please elaborate on why you believe our defensive personnel is a significant upgrade over last year.
 
The question I have is, what types of zone schemes might we see? We were limited last year by our inexperience in zone coverage, so I'm wondering in year 2 if D'Nofrio is comfortable enough with our personnel to actually open up the defensive playbook a bit more.

Will we see more 3-4? More blitzing from LBs and the secondary? If so, how does that work in terms of coverage schemes? Who do we have on the roster that might be able to play the role of the rush end? Which DBs on the roster are suited to this scheme? For that matter, it's easy to say "we ran a lot of zone" last year - what type(s) of zone did we run? Who's responsible for what in this scheme? How can we best utilize our current personnel to mask our weaknesses and enhance our strengths?

Looking to spark some good X/O discussion in this thread if possible...
 
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I remember Coach D saying on wqam... that we are still running zone schemes, b/c in the Pros you can't run man-to-man all day, or you'll get beat bad. He also said that our DBs are going to play off the line mostly during, what you consider are running downs. So that our DBs can help with run support if somebody breaks through the d-line and Lbs.

He went on to say he also doesn't want to make our defense about ONE man being the person responsible for preventing or giving up a TD or big play. I kind of took all that in to mean that Coach D is probably running more Zone than Man still... I don't know if I'd like that idea a lot but we will have to see how it goes. We do have WAY better personnel than last year so I think Coach D will be willing to gamble more with man to man coverage than he did last year.


Please elaborate on why you believe our defensive personnel is a significant upgrade over last year.


I was mainly talking about the DBs only..... We had an underdeveloped McGee, below average Finnie, and a below average Senior Cornerback in #41. We also had only two guys @ Safety with no debth. JoJo and VT.

This year it seems like we've upgraded those areas w/ young talent. The safeties Kacy and AJ are, from everything, that I'm hearing have really stepped their games up, physically and mentally and are more ready to contribute to the team at the safety position.

The cornerbacks just the amount of talent is an upgrade in itself now... we will still be inexperienced there but if McGee can step up like he looked at the end of last year, than we should be able to at least look better than last year at the cornerback position.
 
Last year we saw a ton of Cover-3 zone and man. 3 deep, 4 under. At its core this is a super simple defense that is ultra-conservative. Meaning, it's intended to be equally effective against the run and pass, but not intrinsically OVER-effective against either. It is designed to prevent the big play - and it was pretty obvious that MDO was really scared of giving up explosive plays. I still remember the Kansas State game where they were spreading us out 4-wide and we are still sitting in our base 4-3 front, and they were gashing us running their zone read game by the leverage we were giving them. Not 30 yards at a time but 7 or 8, over and over and over and over again.

What the Cover-3 absolutely requires to be most effective is a dominant, game-changing Free Safety with ball skills and a defensive line that can stuff the run. I didn't and still don't see a difference maker on our depth chart at safety. I think our DL play will be improved against the run simply based on the personnel that we are returning, particularly at DT.

MDO seemed to get more creative and aggressive as the year went on, flipping fronts and bringing pressure, etc. Honestly I give him somewhat of a pass - he took a depleted unit and actually turned in decent numbers at the end of the year. We got quite the infusion of talent with the incoming class, but there will be lots of growing pains I am sure...we are asking a lot of our freshmen, especially in the secondary.

I can't see him straying too far from what he did last year, but if he finds that he can trust his secondary that will free him up to do a lot of different things.
 
Last year we saw a ton of Cover-3 zone and man. 3 deep, 4 under. At its core this is a super simple defense that is ultra-conservative. Meaning, it's intended to be equally effective against the run and pass, but not intrinsically OVER-effective against either. It is designed to prevent the big play - and it was pretty obvious that MDO was really scared of giving up explosive plays. I still remember the Kansas State game where they were spreading us out 4-wide and we are still sitting in our base 4-3 front, and they were gashing us running their zone read game by the leverage we were giving them. Not 30 yards at a time but 7 or 8, over and over and over and over again.

What the Cover-3 absolutely requires to be most effective is a dominant, game-changing Free Safety with ball skills and a defensive line that can stuff the run. I didn't and still don't see a difference maker on our depth chart at safety. I think our DL play will be improved against the run simply based on the personnel that we are returning, particularly at DT.

MDO seemed to get more creative and aggressive as the year went on, flipping fronts and bringing pressure, etc. Honestly I give him somewhat of a pass - he took a depleted unit and actually turned in decent numbers at the end of the year. We got quite the infusion of talent with the incoming class, but there will be lots of growing pains I am sure...we are asking a lot of our freshmen, especially in the secondary.

I can't see him straying too far from what he did last year, but if he finds that he can trust his secondary that will free him up to do a lot of different things.
Good **** bro
 
Last year we saw a ton of Cover-3 zone and man. 3 deep, 4 under. At its core this is a super simple defense that is ultra-conservative. Meaning, it's intended to be equally effective against the run and pass, but not intrinsically OVER-effective against either. It is designed to prevent the big play - and it was pretty obvious that MDO was really scared of giving up explosive plays. I still remember the Kansas State game where they were spreading us out 4-wide and we are still sitting in our base 4-3 front, and they were gashing us running their zone read game by the leverage we were giving them. Not 30 yards at a time but 7 or 8, over and over and over and over again.

What the Cover-3 absolutely requires to be most effective is a dominant, game-changing Free Safety with ball skills and a defensive line that can stuff the run. I didn't and still don't see a difference maker on our depth chart at safety. I think our DL play will be improved against the run simply based on the personnel that we are returning, particularly at DT.

MDO seemed to get more creative and aggressive as the year went on, flipping fronts and bringing pressure, etc. Honestly I give him somewhat of a pass - he took a depleted unit and actually turned in decent numbers at the end of the year. We got quite the infusion of talent with the incoming class, but there will be lots of growing pains I am sure...we are asking a lot of our freshmen, especially in the secondary.

I can't see him straying too far from what he did last year, but if he finds that he can trust his secondary that will free him up to do a lot of different things.

Good post. I'd disagree that the Cover 3 needs a gamechanger at FS. What it needs is an instinctual player who takes all the right angles. Of course, it's nice to have Sean Taylor as a single high Safety, but Cover 3 works with a Jim Leonard.

The real problem lies in showing Cover 3 and ending up in Cover 3. Another issue with Cover 3 is what Dynasty, myself and a few others discussed a couple months ago: exchanges. When you take a bunch of guys who have never played zone before, there is going to be a serious transition. The timing of a Cover 3 zone is insanely important. Otherwise, teams (like our opponents last year) simply flood a zone with combination patterns and you see guys sitting down on shallow routes and being hit over the top (see UNC, VTech, BC). That kind of goes to Auto's point about a gamechanging Safety who covers that up, but realistically I'd hope our guys pass-off WRs better than sitting around waiting for the next superstar Centerfielder.

My hope is that D'Ono was simply so handcuffed that he had to BOTH keep it simple and sit there in the Cover 3. I can't tell you why he did what he did, but I'd like to see us switch between Cover 3 and Cover 2 a little more when we do go zone. And, I'd like to see us switch between Man Under and Cover 4 more often. Plenty of High School kids know how to show something pre-snap and roll to a coverage at the snap. There's no reason our players can't at least minimally be able to feel more comfortable switching. They've now had a full spring, summer and fall. I expect the defense to get better as the season goes on. Something that hasn't happened in some time.
 
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Good post. I'd disagree that the Cover 3 needs a gamechanger at FS. What it needs is an instinctual player who takes all the right angles. Of course, it's nice to have Sean Taylor as a single high Safety, but Cover 3 works with a Jim Leonard.

The real problem lies in showing Cover 3 and ending up in Cover 3. Another issue with Cover 3 is what Dynasty, myself and a few others discussed a couple months ago: exchanges. When you take a bunch of guys who have never played zone before, there is going to be a serious transition. The timing of a Cover 3 zone is insanely important. Otherwise, teams (like our opponents last year) simply flood a zone with combination patterns and you see guys sitting down on shallow routes and being hit over the top (see UNC, VTech, BC). That kind of goes to Auto's point about a gamechanging Safety who covers that up, but realistically I'd hope our guys pass-off WRs better than sitting around waiting for the next superstar Centerfielder.

My hope is that D'Ono was simply so handcuffed that he had to BOTH keep it simple and sit there in the Cover 3. I can't tell you why he did what he did, but I'd like to see us switch between Cover 3 and Cover 2 a little more when we do go zone. And, I'd like to see us switch between Man Under and Cover 4 more often. Plenty of High School kids know how to show something pre-snap and roll to a coverage at the snap. There's no reason our players can't at least minimally be able to feel more comfortable switching. They've now had a full spring, summer and fall. I expect the defense to get better as the season goes on. Something that hasn't happened in some time.

Great post Lu. I totally agree about the timing point you made. I remember numerous times our corners had their backs turned sprinting toward their deep third PRE SNAP. For a smart quarterback that is equivalent of a pitcher telling the batter - "hey, I'm throwing the hook on this one, and it's going to be a hanger."
 
Last year we saw a ton of Cover-3 zone and man. 3 deep, 4 under. At its core this is a super simple defense that is ultra-conservative. Meaning, it's intended to be equally effective against the run and pass, but not intrinsically OVER-effective against either. It is designed to prevent the big play - and it was pretty obvious that MDO was really scared of giving up explosive plays. I still remember the Kansas State game where they were spreading us out 4-wide and we are still sitting in our base 4-3 front, and they were gashing us running their zone read game by the leverage we were giving them. Not 30 yards at a time but 7 or 8, over and over and over and over again.

What the Cover-3 absolutely requires to be most effective is a dominant, game-changing Free Safety with ball skills and a defensive line that can stuff the run. I didn't and still don't see a difference maker on our depth chart at safety. I think our DL play will be improved against the run simply based on the personnel that we are returning, particularly at DT.

MDO seemed to get more creative and aggressive as the year went on, flipping fronts and bringing pressure, etc. Honestly I give him somewhat of a pass - he took a depleted unit and actually turned in decent numbers at the end of the year. We got quite the infusion of talent with the incoming class, but there will be lots of growing pains I am sure...we are asking a lot of our freshmen, especially in the secondary.

I can't see him straying too far from what he did last year, but if he finds that he can trust his secondary that will free him up to do a lot of different things.

Good post. I'd disagree that the Cover 3 needs a gamechanger at FS. What it needs is an instinctual player who takes all the right angles. Of course, it's nice to have Sean Taylor as a single high Safety, but Cover 3 works with a Jim Leonard.

The real problem lies in showing Cover 3 and ending up in Cover 3. Another issue with Cover 3 is what Dynasty, myself and a few others discussed a couple months ago: exchanges. When you take a bunch of guys who have never played zone before, there is going to be a serious transition. The timing of a Cover 3 zone is insanely important. Otherwise, teams (like our opponents last year) simply flood a zone with combination patterns and you see guys sitting down on shallow routes and being hit over the top (see UNC, VTech, BC). That kind of goes to Auto's point about a gamechanging Safety who covers that up, but realistically I'd hope our guys pass-off WRs better than sitting around waiting for the next superstar Centerfielder.

My hope is that D'Ono was simply so handcuffed that he had to BOTH keep it simple and sit there in the Cover 3. I can't tell you why he did what he did, but I'd like to see us switch between Cover 3 and Cover 2 a little more when we do go zone. And, I'd like to see us switch between Man Under and Cover 4 more often. Plenty of High School kids know how to show something pre-snap and roll to a coverage at the snap. There's no reason our players can't at least minimally be able to feel more comfortable switching. They've now had a full spring, summer and fall. I expect the defense to get better as the season goes on. Something that hasn't happened in some time.

Great stuff here guys. This is what I come here looking to read. Thanks a bunch!
 
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I'd also like to add that as diverse as our DE's are (with undersized guys like McCord for instance) that we could see some 4-3 sets that end up sending 3 down linemen + a LB on a blitz while one of the DE's drops off into coverage. Conventional zone-blitz. It's risky sending a DE into coverage, but that's where our younger personnel there kind of helps us--because they're smaller/faster, they can drop off into coverage and cover that slant/flat area or a short-middle zone capably enough to be effective.

If you want to talk about construct of a blitz like that, let's say we line up pre-snap in the normal 4-3 front. After the snap, the strongside DE drops off into a middle zone (favoring his side of the field), while the MIKE LB delay-blitzes, and the SAM LB rotates into a middle zone where the MIKE came from. If you're running Cover 2, then the CB's stay in shallow/middle zones near each sideline, and the safeties split the field in two and cover halves. If you're running a Cover 3 in the same situation, the Strongside DE will fall more into the flat on his side, the SAM/WILL split the middle part of the zone, the Weakside CB mirrors the DE's coverage on the other side, and in the back you have the CB/SS/FS splitting the deep zone into thirds.

We could (and likely will) get a lot more complicated and exotic than that, but I just wanted to follow up on the part of the original question about zone coverage and possible blitzing.
 
Do you think you will see more blitzing out of these zone looks this year or is he going to try and get to the passer with 4 (something we haven't been able to do in years).?
 
I expect to see some freshman mistakes, but at least they'll be made by freshmen, and not seniors. I also think the defense will be better just with the kids having been in the system for over a year now and they will be bigger and stronger.
 
Last year we saw a ton of Cover-3 zone and man. 3 deep, 4 under. At its core this is a super simple defense that is ultra-conservative. Meaning, it's intended to be equally effective against the run and pass, but not intrinsically OVER-effective against either. It is designed to prevent the big play - and it was pretty obvious that MDO was really scared of giving up explosive plays. I still remember the Kansas State game where they were spreading us out 4-wide and we are still sitting in our base 4-3 front, and they were gashing us running their zone read game by the leverage we were giving them. Not 30 yards at a time but 7 or 8, over and over and over and over again.

What the Cover-3 absolutely requires to be most effective is a dominant, game-changing Free Safety with ball skills and a defensive line that can stuff the run. I didn't and still don't see a difference maker on our depth chart at safety. I think our DL play will be improved against the run simply based on the personnel that we are returning, particularly at DT.

MDO seemed to get more creative and aggressive as the year went on, flipping fronts and bringing pressure, etc. Honestly I give him somewhat of a pass - he took a depleted unit and actually turned in decent numbers at the end of the year. We got quite the infusion of talent with the incoming class, but there will be lots of growing pains I am sure...we are asking a lot of our freshmen, especially in the secondary.

I can't see him straying too far from what he did last year, but if he finds that he can trust his secondary that will free him up to do a lot of different things.

Good post. I'd disagree that the Cover 3 needs a gamechanger at FS. What it needs is an instinctual player who takes all the right angles. Of course, it's nice to have Sean Taylor as a single high Safety, but Cover 3 works with a Jim Leonard.

The real problem lies in showing Cover 3 and ending up in Cover 3. Another issue with Cover 3 is what Dynasty, myself and a few others discussed a couple months ago: exchanges. When you take a bunch of guys who have never played zone before, there is going to be a serious transition. The timing of a Cover 3 zone is insanely important. Otherwise, teams (like our opponents last year) simply flood a zone with combination patterns and you see guys sitting down on shallow routes and being hit over the top (see UNC, VTech, BC). That kind of goes to Auto's point about a gamechanging Safety who covers that up, but realistically I'd hope our guys pass-off WRs better than sitting around waiting for the next superstar Centerfielder.

My hope is that D'Ono was simply so handcuffed that he had to BOTH keep it simple and sit there in the Cover 3. I can't tell you why he did what he did, but I'd like to see us switch between Cover 3 and Cover 2 a little more when we do go zone. And, I'd like to see us switch between Man Under and Cover 4 more often. Plenty of High School kids know how to show something pre-snap and roll to a coverage at the snap. There's no reason our players can't at least minimally be able to feel more comfortable switching. They've now had a full spring, summer and fall. I expect the defense to get better as the season goes on. Something that hasn't happened in some time.

I think the fundamental question facing the defense is whether to gamble or play it safe. The secondary isn't very good, but the other parts aren't either. Do you blitz to create pressure? Or do you drop and tackle?
 
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