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Have not seen discussed - Likens as OC

if the budget is what it is, then keep likens as WR coach but not as OC if you're keeping round.
 
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Liberty City El said:
He’s a very good WR’s coach, not a good OC.

The issue is he’s failed pretty bad at both Kansas & AZ St, David Beaty literally demoted him & took play calling away from him & then Herm fired him after one year for being too conservative as a play caller.

We’re not in position to experiment, we have a loaded offense that’s ready to go & win now, we need a sure thing at OC, not a bunch of question marks... Likens, Dorsey, Brady etc, are all question marks, we need a verified play caller that we know will not & cannot fail given the talent we have.
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You don’t think Hern wanted him to be conservative? I mean Jets fans and chiefs fans hated him for running the rb’s into the ground. He **** near killed Larry Johnson lol.

He was easily one of the most conservative head coaches around the nfl. That was literally his MO.

That being said I don’t want Likens as the oc.
 
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OldhamA said:
It's a no from me.

You can't promise $2m per co-ordinator then give Likens another go at being one. Regardless of how much he loves it in Miami.
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I don't believe there was ever a $2m a year promise per co-ordinator it was said they could pay up too. If they did do it that would be $4m for the OC and DC and only $4m left for 8 coaches. When Likens was promoted to Passing game co-ordinator the passing game picked up may have been a coincidence but you never no.
 
Cribby said:
You don’t think Hern wanted him to be conservative? I mean Jets fans and chiefs fans hated him for running the rb’s into the ground. He **** near killed Larry Johnson lol.

He was easily one of the most consecutive head coaches around the nfl. That was literally his MO.

That being said I don’t want Likens as the oc.
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I would say no, because he hired Zak Hill from Boise St to replace him & Zak at the time (& still is) was a well known young coordinator for having a heavy Spread passing attack, that was predicated on tempo & stretching the field.

Likens has done a great job as a WR’s coach, but as an OC & play caller, there’s evidence to suggest that’s not his strong suit, as exampled at both his stints at Kansas & ASU.
 
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dolpterry said:
I don't believe there was ever a $2m a year promise per co-ordinator it was said they could pay up too. If they did do it that would be $4m for the OC and DC and only $4m left for 8 coaches. When Likens was promoted to Passing game co-ordinator the passing game picked up may have been a coincidence but you never no.
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We need to get the best possible Co-ordinators we can.

Cristobal is a CEO HC - he needs experienced playcallers beneath him.
 
@Liberty City El

If we went Air Raid, would we be the most talented program to ever run it?

I am a little concerned about going going in this direction for a few reasons.

1. Championship teams have avoided it.

2. Aggressive, athletic man to man coverage has a track record of shutting it down.

The rebuttal to this would be that we have never seen a program with access to big time talent run the Air Raid, so its true potential is unknown. This is why I asked the question.

My worry is we could be become Oklahoma tier instead of Bama, UGA, OSU tier. We will field a much better defense than Oklahoma, but that offense has gone **** up in the playoffs on multiple occasions, most recently falling way behind LSU in 2019.

LSU showed a pass heavy attack can win it all, but that Playbook is much bigger than the Air Raids’.

What say you, El?
 
TruCane81 said:
@Liberty City El

If we went Air Raid, would we be the most talented program to ever run it?

I am a little concerned about going going in this direction for a few reasons.

1. Championship teams have avoided it.

2. Aggressive, athletic man to man coverage has a track record of shutting it down.

The rebuttal to this would be that we have never seen a program with access to big time talent run the Air Raid, so its true potential is unknown. This is why I asked the question.

My worry is we could be become Oklahoma tier instead of Bama, UGA, OSU tier. We will field a much better defense than Oklahoma, but that offense has gone **** up in the playoffs on multiple occasions, most recently falling way behind LSU in 2019.

LSU showed a pass heavy attack can win it all, but that Playbook is much bigger than the Air Raids’.

What say you, El?
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I’m not in favor of going full Mike Leach Air Raid, but a heavy passing attack IMO is what bests suits our personnel.

I’ve never argued that we should never run the ball or completely abandon it, just that we shouldn’t go from being a team that has its identity staked in being a high octane passer to trying to be a ground & pound ball control offense.

My arguments about the offense for these last few months have all been centered around the personnel, if we had a Wisconsin, UGA or Michigan style roster you would see me arguing just as much in favor of being a run heavy team that hands the ball off 90 times a game lol, but since that wouldn’t work for us you don’t see me campaigning for it.

The goal of attempting to become Bama, UGA or Oh St isn’t realistic IMO which is why I never use those programs as the barometer by which we should judge or aim towards. You don’t go from being a perennial 7-5 type team to a CFP program in one offseason, those are lofty long term goals that take several years to build, the idea that Miami will become UGA isn’t really based in reality & more of a dream that is predicated on the assumption that we’ll recruit top 5 classes every year, which odds are, we won’t.

But in the short term there are examples to look at; Pitt just won the ACC, not because they pounded the rock with a stout run game & played “elite Defense”, they won the ACC because they had a Heisman caliber QB & threw the ball 497 times with him this year. Wake Forest won the Atlantic using the same formula, they threw the ball 469 times with Sam Hartman, they didn’t try to reinvent the wheel & become something they’re not, they leaned into their strengths & used it to win more games than they have in their recent 5-10 year history.

Even Bama the team that everyone wants us to be, threw the ball with Bryce Young 462 times this season, the idea that throwing the ball is some kind of disease that so many fans are scared of always makes me laugh. None of the playoff National championship winning teams have won their Natty by pounding the rock, whether it’s the numerous Bama teams, the Clemson teams, LSU or even when OH St won it in the first annual CFP in 2014, they all threw the ball significantly.

Again, I’m not saying we shouldn’t have balance or never run the football, I’m saying, based on our personnel, which style of Offense do you think our current roster gives us the best chances to win more than 8 games this season?

It’s self evident if you really think about, the only reason why there’s a debate is because people are looking at it from a long term standpoint & not focusing on the actual season, people are projecting 4-5 years down the line when they make their OC suggestions & I’m focusing on 2022 & possibly 2023 at the most, the short term. Why? Because the long term is only the long term in the long term lol, or in other words, 4 years from now doesn’t matter if we don’t win now & winning now is what will make things that much easier 4 years now, that’s what people are missing. The key to our future success is immediate success, if we win now, we’ll win later, if we don’t win now, winning later becomes that much more difficult.

So, the theory is this, hire an OC that is guaranteed to turn our talent that we have right now, into wins on the field, then in 2-3 years you guys can have your I-Formation pound the rock OC until your eyes bleed lol, but right now, lets take what we got & elevate it to a level that gives us a decided advantage over every team play. What’s the sense in risking losing games we should be winning by experimenting with an OC that we’re not sure what he’s bringing to the table when we know we can blow teams out with an OC that there’s no question as to what he’ll do with our talent?
 
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Imma say the reason y his name hasn’t been brought up is b/c his time as an OC/QBC (Kansas 2015-16) & ASU (2018-19) has been less than stellar.

Kansas 2015:
-Total O: 114th
-Scoring O: 122nd
-Passing Efficiency: 115th
-Passing O: 69th
-Rushing O: 120th

Kansas 2016:
-Total O: 114th
-Scoring O: 120th
-Passing Efficiency: 112th
-Passing O: 59th
-Rushing O: 116th

ASU 2018:
-Total O: 50th
-Scoring O: 58th
-Passing Efficiency: 53rd
-Passing O: 65th
-Rushing O: 50th

ASU 2019:
-Total O: 94th
-Scoring O: 96th
-Passing Efficiency: 32nd
-Passing O: 53rd
-Rushing O: 115th

Iunno; I can “maybe” excuse KU since it’s a crap football school, but ASU? When u look at their schedule & see how they struggled offensively against teams like SDSU, Colorado, Stanford, Fresno St (2018), & Sacramento St, UCLA, Oregon St, Arizona (2019), when they out recruited all these schools since Herm took helm, Iunno if this is a name I would want leading my offense.
 
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Liberty City El said:
I’m not in favor of going full Mike Leach Air Raid, but a heavy passing attack IMO is what bests suits our personnel.

I’ve never argued that we should never run the ball or completely abandon it, just that we shouldn’t go from being a team that has its identity staked in being a high octane passer to trying to be a ground & pound ball control offense.

My arguments about the offense for these last few months have all been centered around the personnel, if we had a Wisconsin, UGA or Michigan style roster you would see me arguing just as much in favor of being a run heavy team that hands the ball off 90 times a game lol, but since that wouldn’t work for us you don’t see me campaigning for it.

The goal of attempting to become Bama, UGA or Oh St isn’t realistic IMO which is why I never use those programs as the barometer by which we should judge or aim towards. You don’t go from being a perennial 7-5 type team to a CFP program in one offseason, those are lofty long term goals that take several years to build, the idea that Miami will become UGA isn’t really based in reality & more of a dream that is predicated on the assumption that we’ll recruit top 5 classes every year, which odds are, we won’t.

But in the short term there are examples to look at; Pitt just won the ACC, not because they pounded the rock with a stout run game & played “elite Defense”, they won the ACC because they had a Heisman caliber QB & threw the ball 497 times with him this year. Wake Forest won the Atlantic using the same formula, they threw the ball 469 times with Sam Hartman, they didn’t try to reinvent the wheel & become something they’re not, they leaned into their strengths & used it to win more games than they have in their recent 5-10 year history.

Even Bama the team that everyone wants us to be, threw the ball with Bryce Young 462 times this season, the idea that throwing the ball is some kind of disease that so many fans are scared of always makes me laugh. None of the playoff National championship winning teams have won their Natty by pounding the rock, whether it’s the numerous Bama teams, the Clemson teams, LSU or even when OH St won it in the first annual CFP in 2014, they all threw the ball significantly.

Again, I’m not saying we shouldn’t have balance or never run the football, I’m saying, based on our personnel, which style of Offense do you think our current roster gives us the best chances to win more than 8 games this season?

It’s self evident if you really think about, the only reason why there’s a debate is because people are looking at it from a long term standpoint & not focusing on the actual season, people are projecting 4-5 years down the line when they make their OC suggestions & I’m focusing on 2022 & possibly 2023 at the most, the short term. Why? Because the long term is only the long term in the long term lol, or in other words, 4 years from now doesn’t matter if we don’t win now & winning now is what will make things that much easier 4 years now, that’s what people are missing. The key to our future success is immediate success, if we win now, we’ll win later, if we don’t win now, winning later becomes that much more difficult.

So, the theory is this, hire an OC that is guaranteed to turn our talent that we have right now, into wins on the field, then in 2-3 years you guys can have your I-Formation pound the rock OC until your eyes bleed lol, but right now, lets take what we got & elevate it to a level that gives us a decided advantage over every team play. What’s the sense in risking losing games we should be winning by experimenting with an OC that we’re not sure what he’s bringing to the table when we know we can blow teams out with an OC that there’s no question as to what he’ll do with our talent?
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You misunderstood me El.

Oklahoma combines Air Raid with a strong power run game.

My concern is with the PASSING in the air raid system. It uses a small set of plays run to perfection. That small playbook maybe what gets it upended by the top defenses.

Since 2010 the national champions outside of Auburn and Clemson have used more pro style passing games.

With Van Dykes upside and Mario’s recruiting prowess, I wonder if this is the direction we should go with our offense.

I really like the versatility of the Clemson offense and guys who were coordinators under Meyer like Herman and Mullen. We have watched those systems tear apart world class defenses.
 
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What would be wrong running the offense from this past season if we could run the ball with more consistency, especially in goal line and shortage yardage? Need to improve the RB depth with the return of a healthy Chaney, the freshmen and another addition. Have to assume Mario will recruit and develop toughness along the OL.
 
If Mario does go the Ken Dorsey route, I would personally keep Likens on the staff and add Jim Mastro (if able to pull him from the west coast).

This would afford Dorsey someone that is familiar with last year offense for transitioning. Likens can also collaborate with Dorsey on some air raid principles into his playbook.
 
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cleverjdub said:
Same guys saying no to Dorsey, saying yes to Brady don’t realize Brady was an offensive assistant (like no position coach title) before LSU with no playing calling experience. He was just considered a bright mind like Dorsey, I would even say Dorsey’s resume is better (prior to either one of them ever being official OCs and calling plays) given his position coach title and history along with the passing game coordinator title. I don’t get all the backlash against Dorsey, but stomping on the table for Brady.

Either could be successful along with some other assistants who have never called plays before, but have learned a lot from great offensive minds.
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If Jedd Fisch can come up out of nowhere and become an OC, why the **** can't Dorsey?
 
You can't make a huge coordinator budget a major sticking point of contract negotiations only to turn around and promote ROB LIKENS as your OC.

We're supposed to be serious about football now. Spend the money, get a whale.

Stop thinking like poors.
 
Brooklyndee said:
Just so ur aware, at this point Dorsey is **** near considered a guru at the NFL level. Ask Shula who was doing what for cam & ask Josh Allen who's responsible for his success...
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But he is tied to Miami. There is no way he can be good. Don't you get it?
 
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