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If that did happen, I wonder if a precedence would be set and allow other schools to follow, or would they need to go through the whole litigation process again as FSU is doing now?

I really hopes this helps Miami somehow get out of the ACC and into the big two conferences.

If the FSU case were to be litigated through the completion of the appellate process AND FSU prevailed in having the GOR deemed unenforceable, that precedent would be available to Miami to invoke in their own case against the ACC.

Having said that, I doubt the ACC will allow that to happen. I’m sure they would settle with FSU if they lost - or felt they were likely to lose - at the trial court level. Trial court decisions don’t carry much precedential value.
 
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Legal precedent is not self-executing. We would need to go through our own process.

More importantly, and the factor that a lot of people are MISSING, is that the ACC will probably settle on a reduced penalty with F$U long before this actually goes to trial. Which is why Miami MUST become a co-litigant.

Because the ACC isn't settling with any school that isn't suing them.

Can anyone tell me which ACC school got a reduced payout 10 years ago BESIDES Maryland?

Some people really don't understand how lawsuits, settlements, and legal precedent work.

I'll bet money that the ACC will never let the F$U lawsuit BECOME legal precedent. The ACC will settle with FSU. And Miami will still be in the ACC. Unless we sue too.
If I remember correctly, Maryland had to pay $31 million to the conference instead of $52 million. There was also no grant of rights in effect then, they had voted against the increase in exit fees (that had tripled them) and then had immediately agreed to join the Big 10, so this was a case solely about money. No one else has tried to leave the ACC, and no one in any conference has tried to exit a GOR situation early, so there is no precedent when it comes to that and no reason for any other schools to sue the ACC until now. Maryland definitely saved some money by suing the ACC, but I'm not sure if that's a reason to view them as precedent. (You are 100% right about some lawyers not being all that bright, but that also applies to FSU, in addition to the NCAA, conferences, and other universities.)

This case has some important differences:
FSU is still a member of the conference without a (known) agreement to join another conference. There is a GOR in effect that was willingly signed by all involved parties. The amount of money involved is staggering (we're talking 10x as much in just over a decade, which in itself is crazy... that shows how much the almighty dollar has impacted -- I'd say for the worse -- college football). And the ACC is fighting for the survival of the conference. The ACC knew it couldn't keep Maryland and easily replaced them with Louisville, which most of us would say has been a competitive upgrade. If FSU leaves, the ACC as we know it is over with, and many other schools get left behind with very little chance to play with the big boys of college football going forward; I don't think the ACC has much incentive to settle unless it looks like they will lose their case.

I can see this ending one of four ways:
1) FSU loses its case and has to return to a conference that it has alienated and stay here until it can afford to pay the penalties involved with leaving the conference.
2) FSU loses/is losing its case and wants to leave so much that it pays a ton of money (maybe not the full $500+ million, but a negotiated amount close to that) to go elsewhere immediately... I think this is counterproductive, as even with a full invite to the Big Ten or SEC, it would take them many years to make up for that money.
3) The ACC is worried that it will lose the case and settles with FSU for an amount that might be around 30-50% of the required exit fees -- still a lot of money, but an easier pill to swallow.
4) The ACC loses and FSU is free to leave because the GOR and/or draconian exit fees are unenforceable.

The only way I think we should join this lawsuit is if we are desperate to leave the ACC, are willing to pay a significant amount of money to leave (not the full $500+ million, but still a substantial amount), and we think scenario #3 is going to happen. Otherwise, sit back and let FSU either go down in flames in court, OR if FSU wins, then other schools would be free leave with minor penalties or to challenge the GOR/exit fees in court using the same arguments.


I know this is a long post, but a side note here. If scenario #4 happens and courts rule that the ACC's GOR/massive penalties are unenforceable, this could create a major change and new instability for college football, just as NIL has done. If a GOR /massive penalties are unenforceable, what's to stop schools from moving conferences routinely, chasing money and new media deals when they have a good team or a ton of eyeballs watching? Any conference stability that's left could completely go away and the college sports landscape could look radically different in 10 years (and probably not for the better). It all depends on the nuances of the case and its results, of course, but I could see something like that as a possibility.
 
A little insight into how the law actually works: sometimes court cases are decided on grounds beyond the strict application of law to facts. That is more the exception than the rule, but I could easily see a Florida judge exercising discretion to extricate FSU from an objectively unjust entanglement. And I could see appellate courts letting it stand.
Also depends on whether the contract requires a specific jurisdiction for any lawsuits, which it probably does.
 
I'm going to ask a simple question.

For the people who attribute "airtight" and "ironclad" descriptions to the GOR based upon the fact that lawyers drafted it and lawyers reviewed it and universities have massive resources and all these people must be soooo smart...

Did you READ the Miami-Arkansas State game contract?

Because if you DID read that game contract, you would realize that even "smart people" with "massive resources" and "teams of attorneys"...do dumb **** and sign dumb contracts that can be a pile of garbage terms and vague clauses.
I would love to read the actual contract, as I am sure you would as well. I‘m sure its very tough to break, but as @AmherstCane wrote, sometimes all a party needs is a sympathetic judge
Is there a venue clause for lawsuits?
 
I'm going to ask a simple question.

For the people who attribute "airtight" and "ironclad" descriptions to the GOR based upon the fact that lawyers drafted it and lawyers reviewed it and universities have massive resources and all these people must be soooo smart...

Did you READ the Miami-Arkansas State game contract?

Because if you DID read that game contract, you would realize that even "smart people" with "massive resources" and "teams of attorneys"...do dumb **** and sign dumb contracts that can be a pile of garbage terms and vague clauses.
They are getting airtight and ironclad generally from reporters that work for ESPN
 
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Seems like the "smoking gun" is the FACT that the media rights COMMITMENT by ESPN is currently only through 2027 and the ACC Conference obligated the member to sign a GOR commitment through 2036. Members believed ... until yesterday ... that ESPN also had a commitment through 2036. As it turns out the ACC conference UNILATERALLY decided to give ESPN an extension option ... to extend the media commitment 9 years from 2027 through 2036 and they have until February 2025 to exercise that option. The ACC conference DID THIS without member approval or member notification and it is an action that required 2/3 member approval. THEREFORE at the very least I would expect a court to find that the MUTUAL OBLIGATION expires in 2027. Therefore any program wanting to leave PRIOR to 2027 would pay the ACC exit fee and a per year penalty GOR buyback to ESPN for 2 years (if out in 2025).
 
If I remember correctly, Maryland had to pay $31 million to the conference instead of $52 million. There was also no grant of rights in effect then, they had voted against the increase in exit fees (that had tripled them) and then had immediately agreed to join the Big 10, so this was a case solely about money. No one else has tried to leave the ACC, and no one in any conference has tried to exit a GOR situation early, so there is no precedent when it comes to that and no reason for any other schools to sue the ACC until now. Maryland definitely saved some money by suing the ACC, but I'm not sure if that's a reason to view them as precedent. (You are 100% right about some lawyers not being all that bright, but that also applies to FSU, in addition to the NCAA, conferences, and other universities.)

This case has some important differences:
FSU is still a member of the conference without a (known) agreement to join another conference. There is a GOR in effect that was willingly signed by all involved parties. The amount of money involved is staggering (we're talking 10x as much in just over a decade, which in itself is crazy... that shows how much the almighty dollar has impacted -- I'd say for the worse -- college football). And the ACC is fighting for the survival of the conference. The ACC knew it couldn't keep Maryland and easily replaced them with Louisville, which most of us would say has been a competitive upgrade. If FSU leaves, the ACC as we know it is over with, and many other schools get left behind with very little chance to play with the big boys of college football going forward; I don't think the ACC has much incentive to settle unless it looks like they will lose their case.

I can see this ending one of four ways:
1) FSU loses its case and has to return to a conference that it has alienated and stay here until it can afford to pay the penalties involved with leaving the conference.
2) FSU loses/is losing its case and wants to leave so much that it pays a ton of money (maybe not the full $500+ million, but a negotiated amount close to that) to go elsewhere immediately... I think this is counterproductive, as even with a full invite to the Big Ten or SEC, it would take them many years to make up for that money.
3) The ACC is worried that it will lose the case and settles with FSU for an amount that might be around 30-50% of the required exit fees -- still a lot of money, but an easier pill to swallow.
4) The ACC loses and FSU is free to leave because the GOR and/or draconian exit fees are unenforceable.

The only way I think we should join this lawsuit is if we are desperate to leave the ACC, are willing to pay a significant amount of money to leave (not the full $500+ million, but still a substantial amount), and we think scenario #3 is going to happen. Otherwise, sit back and let FSU either go down in flames in court, OR if FSU wins, then other schools would be free leave with minor penalties or to challenge the GOR/exit fees in court using the same arguments.


I know this is a long post, but a side note here. If scenario #4 happens and courts rule that the ACC's GOR/massive penalties are unenforceable, this could create a major change and new instability for college football, just as NIL has done. If a GOR /massive penalties are unenforceable, what's to stop schools from moving conferences routinely, chasing money and new media deals when they have a good team or a ton of eyeballs watching? Any conference stability that's left could completely go away and the college sports landscape could look radically different in 10 years (and probably not for the better). It all depends on the nuances of the case and its results, of course, but I could see something like that as a possibility.
Not disagreeing with most of what you said, but there were plenty of TV contracts between conferences and schools before grants of rights existed as a separate document. ESPN had a deal with the ACC already as an example when Maryland left and there was no grant of rights yet. It was unnecessary for years.

This is also a separate thing from the exit fee to leave a conference, which is what Maryland paid and which, in theory, could be increased to some number that all members vote in with transparency which operates as it once did with the same practical effect. There are also only a few bidders in television/streaming down, it’s not about to become a wild west no matter what beyond what’s already happened with The So-called grant of rights already in place.

We are already in the reckoning.
 
Not sure if this has been mentioned but FSU thought they never got a break before, just wait till now. Every sport they're going to be the pariah, the ones trying to destroy the conference, and my guess is their athletic matches will be officiated as such.
 
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Legal precedent is not self-executing. We would need to go through our own process.

More importantly, and the factor that a lot of people are MISSING, is that the ACC will probably settle on a reduced penalty with F$U long before this actually goes to trial. Which is why Miami MUST become a co-litigant.

Because the ACC isn't settling with any school that isn't suing them.

Can anyone tell me which ACC school got a reduced payout 10 years ago BESIDES Maryland?

Some people really don't understand how lawsuits, settlements, and legal precedent work.

I'll bet money that the ACC will never let the F$U lawsuit BECOME legal precedent. The ACC will settle with FSU. And Miami will still be in the ACC. Unless we sue too.
Thank you.
This explains a lot, and the outcome you describe is also the most likely in my opinion.

I agree this is most likely going to be settled to a reduced amount.
 
A little insight into how the law actually works: sometimes court cases are decided on grounds beyond the strict application of law to facts. That is more the exception than the rule, but I could easily see a Florida judge exercising discretion to extricate FSU from an objectively unjust entanglement. And I could see appellate courts letting it stand.

Hmm. Guess I was absent the day they taught law at Stanford law school 😜😂😜
 
I do.
No way FSU files this without a spot, and my best guess would be the BIG10.
Their fans base might consist of a bunch of dopes, but there is no way their administration would be stupid enough to go through all this if they weren’t sure they knew where they were going. No way.

Dopes is right 👍🏻
 
Why are any Canes complaining about this? If they want to be the bird dog and take the fight to the ACC and GOR - good. If they win, we get out too.
I'm not complaining at all but I don't trust FSU to do this competently solo and think they possibly could end up preventing group exit action if they fail. I think at least in the arena of public perception that FSU currently looks erratic and reactionary and butt-hurt while only concerned about crafting a path for a solo exit rather than seeking a legal ruling that would blow up the whole conference.

I absolutely wish them the best of luck if they somehow actually end up mortally wounding this godforsaken conference but I wish they had at least a couple other schools onboard now.
 
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This is not accurate in the context of claims for equitable relief or avoidance of obligations on public policy grounds. Ambiguity can also be somewhat subjective.

While it’s true Florida courts have trended toward enforcing contracts as written over the last 1-2 decades, FSU is seeking equitable relief which is subject to a great deal of judicial discretion.

Public policy as grounds to obviate a contract between two similarly situated counterparties …. Not exactly a strong basis to support a cause of action

(Just saying)
 
I'm not complaining at all but I don't trust FSU to do this competently solo and think they possibly could end up preventing group exit action if they fail. I think at least in the arena of public perception that FSU currently looks erratic and reactionary and butt-hurt while only concerned about crafting a path for a solo exit rather than seeking a legal ruling that would blow up the whole conference.

I absolutely wish them the best of luck if they somehow actually end up mortally wounding this godforsaken conference but I wish they had at least a couple other schools onboard now.
I get this argument too. I’m not privy to everything UM is looking at. FSU should be able to test some theories if it ever gets to trial and if it doesn’t, they’ll set buyout terms.
 
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I'm not complaining at all but I don't trust FSU to do this competently solo and think they possibly could end up preventing group exit action if they fail. I think at least in the arena of public perception that FSU currently looks erratic and reactionary and butt-hurt while only concerned about crafting a path for a solo exit rather than seeking a legal ruling that would blow up the whole conference.

I absolutely wish them the best of luck if they somehow actually end up mortally wounding this godforsaken conference but I wish they had at least a couple other schools onboard now.
They don’t look erratic in (checks notes) their home county and state where case is filed
 
I do.
No way FSU files this without a spot, and my best guess would be the BIG10.
Their fans base might consist of a bunch of dopes, but there is no way their administration would be stupid enough to go through all this if they weren’t sure they knew where they were going. No way.
Are you sure about this? I'm not saying you're wrong, but as we saw recently with the breakup of the Pac-12, some of these universities aren't exactly employing the best and brightest to run their schools and conferences...
 
This is not accurate in the context of claims for equitable relief or avoidance of obligations on public policy grounds. Ambiguity can also be somewhat subjective.

While it’s true Florida courts have trended toward enforcing contracts as written over the last 1-2 decades, FSU is seeking equitable relief which is subject to a great deal of judicial discretion.


It's amazing that we have so many porsters come here to lecture us about what the court is going to do, when this lawsuit may never even see the inside of a courtroom.

Unlike these "board experts", I don't claim to know what a judge would do. But I evaluate the strength of the arguments being made. And there are some very solid arguments, which increase the likelihood of a settlement that will be favorable to the schools that choose to challenge the GOR.

Here is the reality. Almost every contract, on paper, looks innocent. Harmless. Blameless. Couldn't harm a fly.

And yet they are not magical documents that cannot be attacked. There are plenty of simple words that can have brutal impact. Some of those words seem, but mean something completely different when viewed in context.

Take the TERM of the GOR as a simple issue. We had ALREADY granted our rights to the ACC. Our rights had ALREADY been sold to ESPN through a certain date. Suddenly, because we are trying to create the ACC Network, ESPN demands, yes DEMANDS a GOR extension through 2036. WHY? They demanded an extension that was NINE YEARS longer than their obligation to pay us. When you look at it directly and with context, the language becomes outrageous.

So, yeah, dip****s on the board are going to spin some gossamer words about willing parties freely entering into an agreement, and how the rest of the world will respect that and refuse to find fault with such a contract.

Bull****.

Even if someone wants to accept the basic propriety of a GOR, that does not mean THE EXTENSION should be honored.

And just like that, you have powerful leverage and a devastating tool to pound on for a settlement negotiation.

And Miami should be a party to the lawsuit and a part of the negotiations.
 
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