Canes BSBL at UVA Game 3 (Canes Win 8-6)

[BWCD]

Actually I did, but you were too defensive to see it.

No, there was a whole bunch of other BS around it. Had you come in here and said what you did, the discussion would have never turned down the road it did.

Both coaches know that they have to have their kids prepared for this weekend. They are Hall of Fame coaches. But while their preparation has to be done, isn't going to win the series. They aren't going to out-prepare each other.

I simply and respectfully disagree. You have to gauge your team's level of focus. If they're too serious, loosen it up a little in the clubhouse. If they're being too silly, you've got to crack the whip and get them refocused on the task at hand because this week is really important for our postseason seeding. If we want to host a Regional and Super Regional, it's imperative we go 4-0 or 3-1 this week. If Martin or FAU's HC does a better job of this than Morris does, then it can impact those ballgames. Mindset can make a big difference not only in individual players, but in the team's performance too.

At this point in the school calendar it is all about execution. The preparation that mattered happened in October and January. Pitchers have to nail their spots. Hitters have to have quality ABs. Infield has to catch and throw. There is not a new mental angle that has to be addressed this week.

Agreed on the execution piece...everyone has to use the tools that they come into the games with to the best of their abilities...no doubt. However, if your team isn't mentally prepared, then execution can suffer. You still have to work on players' weaknesses day-in/day-out...that's part of your job as a coaching staff. Just because you have a player that, say, has trouble consistently making defensive plays at SS to his right, and he's still having troubles by January...you don't just throw up your hands and say "well--the season started, we can't fix it now, may as well let him suck". You continue to work on it, because any bit of progress and preparation can make a major difference on a single play in crunch time.

One of the two is going to lose the series by default. The losing team isn't going to be unprepared. It might come down to errors or bad pitches at bad times, but it won't be because one of the coaches failed to tell the team how important the series is. Motivation is a non-factor this weekend.

Wow...motivation is a non-factor in a Miami/F$U baseball series? It's always a hotly contested and emotional series for the most part. Of course motivation is going to play a role. I'll disagree vehemently w/that.

Morris' track record the past few years of having teams that looked too tight and descend into ****-poor execution when it's all on the line says otherwise, too. You can't look at this season or weekend in a vacuum. Sure, every team is different every year, but when teams over a period of several years (arguably a decade) coached by Morris tend to fold in big-time games, then it's a worrisome trend that falls squarely on the leadership/prep skills of Morris and his staff.

If you don't see it that way, that's fine. We can agree to disagree and go in opposite directions w/o any of the ugliness from earlier in the thread.

 

[QueenOfSpades]

One of the two is going to lose the series by default. The losing team isn't going to be unprepared. It might come down to errors or bad pitches at bad times, but it won't be because one of the coaches failed to tell the team how important the series is. Motivation is a non-factor this weekend.

Wow...motivation is a non-factor in a Miami/F$U baseball series? It's always a hotly contested and emotional series for the most part. Of course motivation is going to play a role. I'll disagree vehemently w/that.

Morris' track record the past few years of having teams that looked too tight and descend into ****-poor execution when it's all on the line says otherwise, too. You can't look at this season or weekend in a vacuum. Sure, every team is different every year, but when teams over a period of several years (arguably a decade) coached by Morris tend to fold in big-time games, then it's a worrisome trend that falls squarely on the leadership/prep skills of Morris and his staff.

If you don't see it that way, that's fine. We can agree to disagree and go in opposite directions w/o any of the ugliness from earlier in the thread.

Naturally you missed the point. No one needs to be motivated, that's why it's a non-factor.

The failures in recent years have been because of terrible recruiting, not game-week preparation. The talent level took a dive after 2008.

 

[BWCD]

LMAO. Remind a guy that an offspeed pitch is coming on a 1-2 count? Awesome, except that's when the guy buzzes 92 on the inside corner. This isn't 12-under travel ball, man.

That was just one example. You have to read tendencies. That's part of the job of a coach.

DVR the next SEC or ACC game on ESPNU and show me when a coach reminds a hitter that a curve ball might be coming.

I'm sure it happens. They may not call time and do it on camera, but it can be as simple as a pre-pitch sign from the 3B Coach (which just so happens to be Morris most of the time). Either that, or if a hitter does get fooled by an offspeed pitch on 1-2...once they get back to the dugout, you tell them, "hey, you get caught in that situation again, watch the offspeed". Most of the time, if a pitcher finds something that works against the hitter...they'll go back to it if/when they get the chance. That's where you coach and get the hitter to adjust.

 

[QueenOfSpades]

LMAO. Remind a guy that an offspeed pitch is coming on a 1-2 count? Awesome, except that's when the guy buzzes 92 on the inside corner. This isn't 12-under travel ball, man.

That was just one example. You have to read tendencies. That's part of the job of a coach.

DVR the next SEC or ACC game on ESPNU and show me when a coach reminds a hitter that a curve ball might be coming.

I'm sure it happens. They may not call time and do it on camera, but it can be as simple as a pre-pitch sign from the 3B Coach (which just so happens to be Morris most of the time). Either that, or if a hitter does get fooled by an offspeed pitch on 1-2...once they get back to the dugout, you tell them, "hey, you get caught in that situation again, watch the offspeed". Most of the time, if a pitcher finds something that works against the hitter...they'll go back to it if/when they get the chance. That's where you coach and get the hitter to adjust.

A sign from the coach? Come on, brother, work with me. You're really showing that you're an amateur. There is no pre-pitch sign because no coach at this level would ever tell a player to look for an offspeed pitch, especially in the middle of an at bat.

 

[BWCD]

Naturally you missed the point. No one needs to be motivated, that's why it's a non-factor.

Then that's what you should have said. I could have assumed that (and kinda did), but took your words for what you wrote.

Sucks when someone reads too much into what you write, doesn't it?

The failures in recent years have been because of terrible recruiting, not game-week preparation. The talent level took a dive after 2008.

While we aren't loaded with stars like back in the 80's/90's/00's...we still aren't terrible in terms of talent we've recruited at all. We've had a ton of HS AA's and elite USA Baseball participants in the past few years.

You can't blame recruiting on, say, getting beat at home a few years ago in Regionals by "powerhouses" like Stony Brook and Missouri State...and by 10-2/12-2 margins to boot. That's lack of preparation and motivation. Due to that, and other late-season letdowns, I'm simply skeptical of the coaching and leadership.

Now, you can certainly say we got bit by the MLB draft a few times...that's certainly true. We had verbals from guys like Albert Almora, Nick Travieso, Keon Barnum, Nick Castellanos, Yordy Cabrera, Christian Yelich...none of those guys ended up in a Miami uniform because they got drafted way too high. If you want to make that point, I'll agree.

 

[QueenOfSpades]

You should follow the national scene more closely. The writers said before that regional that we had the least amount of talent in that tournament. Stony Brook was not a surprise. You do know that they went and beat national seed LSU in Baton Rouge, right?

 

[BWCD]

A sign from the coach? Come on, brother, work with me. You're really showing that you're an amateur. There is no pre-pitch sign because no coach at this level would ever tell a player to look for an offspeed pitch, especially in the middle of an at bat.

If they know a pitcher's tendencies and want to remind their hitter that it could likely be coming, there's nothing saying that they wouldn't.

Let's say it's a 3-2 count, bottom 9th, down a run, no outs, runners 2nd/3rd. Your hitter is 3-4 for the day, and their closer is up. He has a nasty slider that he likes as his out-pitch, but tends to throw more high fastballs on a 3-2 count due to the metrics you've tracked on him for the season. For some reason, the opposing pitching coach comes out to the mound for a visit.

What would you tell your hitter in that situation during the timeout? I'd tell him to watch the high fastball, because that's his tendency in this scenario. Now...is there always a chance the pitcher could go to his favorite slider? Sure. But you coach to the tendencies.

 

[QueenOfSpades]

A sign from the coach? Come on, brother, work with me. You're really showing that you're an amateur. There is no pre-pitch sign because no coach at this level would ever tell a player to look for an offspeed pitch, especially in the middle of an at bat.

If they know a pitcher's tendencies and want to remind their hitter that it could likely be coming, there's nothing saying that they wouldn't.

Let's say it's a 3-2 count, bottom 9th, down a run, no outs, runners 2nd/3rd. Your hitter is 3-4 for the day, and their closer is up. He has a nasty slider that he likes as his out-pitch, but tends to throw more high fastballs on a 3-2 count due to the metrics you've tracked on him for the season. For some reason, the opposing pitching coach comes out to the mound for a visit.

What would you tell your hitter in that situation during the timeout? I'd tell him to watch the high fastball, because that's his tendency in this scenario. Now...is there always a chance the pitcher could go to his favorite slider? Sure. But you coach to the tendencies.

At least that scenario is realistic. A sign from the coach that a curve ball might be coming on a 1-2 pitch is not realistic. That is equivalent to reminding the batter to run to first if he hits it.

 

[BWCD]

You should follow the national scene more closely. The writers said before that regional that we had the least amount of talent in that tournament. Stony Brook was not a surprise. You do know that they went and beat national seed LSU in Baton Rouge, right?

Of course I do. I watched all the games in that Regional, and then watched SB/LSU a bunch too and on into Omaha. SB was playing pretty good ball that year.

However, SB being a really good ballclub shouldn't preclude us from expecting to beat them in a Regional at home, talent level be damned. How many guys from that SB team are in a major league team's system now? I'm guessing less than are from that Miami team, without looking. If I'm wrong, I'd gladly accept new information and rethink my stance.

What you're saying is tantamount to a Michigan fan saying of their loss to Appy State in the Big House years ago, "Well, we should have seen it coming. We're not as talented as we usually are, and Appy State was a **** good FCS team." In the words of Mike Leach (lol), "Fvck that". You're Michigan in football, you should beat Appy State at home, no matter the situation. You're Miami in baseball, you should beat Stony Brook at home, no matter the situation. That's not a stretch to expect as a fan.

 

[BWCD]

A sign from the coach? Come on, brother, work with me. You're really showing that you're an amateur. There is no pre-pitch sign because no coach at this level would ever tell a player to look for an offspeed pitch, especially in the middle of an at bat.

If they know a pitcher's tendencies and want to remind their hitter that it could likely be coming, there's nothing saying that they wouldn't.

Let's say it's a 3-2 count, bottom 9th, down a run, no outs, runners 2nd/3rd. Your hitter is 3-4 for the day, and their closer is up. He has a nasty slider that he likes as his out-pitch, but tends to throw more high fastballs on a 3-2 count due to the metrics you've tracked on him for the season. For some reason, the opposing pitching coach comes out to the mound for a visit.

What would you tell your hitter in that situation during the timeout? I'd tell him to watch the high fastball, because that's his tendency in this scenario. Now...is there always a chance the pitcher could go to his favorite slider? Sure. But you coach to the tendencies.

At least that scenario is realistic. A sign from the coach that a curve ball might be coming on a 1-2 pitch is not realistic. That is equivalent to reminding the batter to run to first if he hits it.

OK--so I picked a sh1tty scenario the first time. So sue me. The logic still tracks that you can coach to the tendencies and (as I posited) effect the game as a coach, as I pointed out.

 

[QueenOfSpades]

You should follow the national scene more closely. The writers said before that regional that we had the least amount of talent in that tournament. Stony Brook was not a surprise. You do know that they went and beat national seed LSU in Baton Rouge, right?

Of course I do. I watched all the games in that Regional, and then watched SB/LSU a bunch too and on into Omaha. SB was playing pretty good ball that year.

However, SB being a really good ballclub shouldn't preclude us from expecting to beat them in a Regional at home, talent level be damned. How many guys from that SB team are in a major league team's system now? I'm guessing less than are from that Miami team, without looking. If I'm wrong, I'd gladly accept new information and rethink my stance.

What you're saying is tantamount to a Michigan fan saying of their loss to Appy State in the Big House years ago, "Well, we should have seen it coming. We're not as talented as we usually are, and Appy State was a **** good FCS team." In the words of Mike Leach (lol), "Fvck that". You're Michigan in football, you should beat Appy State at home, no matter the situation. You're Miami in baseball, you should beat Stony Brook at home, no matter the situation. That's not a stretch to expect as a fan.

But you forgot how we got to this point in the discussion. I said that our talent level took a dive. Of course we should never lose to Stony Brook. But we did because our team was very mediocre. And that is exactly the point I was making. We lost because we were very average compared to the other teams in that region, not because Morris failed to motivate them. He failed that team when he recruited that group 2-3 years earlier.

 

[QueenOfSpades]

OK--so I picked a sh1tty scenario the first time. So sue me. The logic still tracks that you can coach to the tendencies and (as I posited) effect the game as a coach, as I pointed out.

Again, we have taken a wrong turn somewhere. No one said that he has no impact, but one of us said that whether we go 3-1 or 1-3, it's "on him".

 

[BWCD]

But you forgot how we got to this point in the discussion. I said that our talent level took a dive. Of course we should never lose to Stony Brook. But we did because our team was very mediocre. And that is exactly the point I was making. We lost because we were very average compared to the other teams in that region, not because Morris failed to motivate them. He failed that team when he recruited that group 2-3 years earlier.

Given the talent we recruit, and the level of coaching we're supposed to have, Morris should still be able to motivate his very mediocre by Miami standard squad to beat SB's best squad ever. That's my opinion on it. We're freaking Miami baseball. That should NEVER happen to us, and Morris allowed it to happen, either thru some bad recruiting or lack of coaching/prep (or a combination thereof).

And here's the key--2-3 years before that when he recruited those kids, he knew that's who he was going to have. You have the squad you recruit. It's up to you to develop them and motivate them. Morris didn't get the most out of those guys. Sure, their ceilings may have been lower than a normal Miami squad...but you still don't lose to SB at home in the postseason. Come on.

To boot--how do you think SB got to where they did? Did they recruit on an elite level and the coach just be there to unlock the clubhouse everyday and let the guys play around a little bit? No. They built up that program thru hard work, prep, and coaching. Matt Senk took that program from D3 back in 1991 all the way up to D1 and don't look now, but they're atop the America East again this year and could get back into the postseason.

 

[BWCD]

OK--so I picked a sh1tty scenario the first time. So sue me. The logic still tracks that you can coach to the tendencies and (as I posited) effect the game as a coach, as I pointed out.

Again, we have taken a wrong turn somewhere. No one said that he has no impact, but one of us said that whether we go 3-1 or 1-3, it's "on him".

It boils down to this, you don't think that whether or not Morris has his team in the right mindset matters. I do. We can disagree and go our separate ways.

And the wrong turn was conflating/combining the point Angry Ibis made with our earlier conversation as you just did. Kind of related, but really more on two different trains of thought.

 

[Angry Ibis]

What I have learned is a coach has no impact on a baseball game or team.

I'll disagree with you there, respectfully. Baseball coaches can put a fielder in the right position to make a play pre-pitch, just like football DC's can use formations to match up correctly. Baseball coaches can tell a hitter that he needs to watch out for an offspeed pitch on a 1-2 count because the pitcher has one to waste, and to lay off of it unless it's perfect...which I know sounds like common sense, but sometimes you've got to remind baseball players because patience can pay off in an at-bat, and they forget that in the heat of the moment sometimes. Righty-lefty matchups, timing your pinch hitters/runners correctly, etc...they have a major bearing on the game.

And that includes preparation and motivation. Drilling the guys in fielding practice so they cut down on errors, working curveballs in batting practice to hitters who are bad at hitting them, engendering an atmosphere of being loose/fun when you need to, and being strict/focus-driven when you need to...it's a delicate balance.

If your premise was right, we wouldn't need a staff at all. Just let the guys show up and play w/o any kind of preparation/planning, and we'd be horrible to watch.

I don't believe our opinions are too different on this subject. I was being slightly sarcastic due to the back and forth in the thread. I believe a coach, specifically at this level and below, has an impact on both the game and the preparation and mindset leading into it. I also think Queen of Spades is stirring **** up without real answers in most of the posts, yet weaving in different arguments throughout the back and forth to change the argument around. Very crafty. He/she indicated in one thread that Morris has some people fooled, yet in this thread he/she is arguing that Morris will have little impact on the motivation going into the upcoming week. Not sure how he could be fooling people yet have no impact on preparation and motivation. I don't think Morris is fooling anyone.

Obviously the players play the game against other players, but let's not act like the coaches sit in their offices all week and then hand in the lineup card and leave.

 

[QueenOfSpades]

But you forgot how we got to this point in the discussion. I said that our talent level took a dive. Of course we should never lose to Stony Brook. But we did because our team was very mediocre. And that is exactly the point I was making. We lost because we were very average compared to the other teams in that region, not because Morris failed to motivate them. He failed that team when he recruited that group 2-3 years earlier.

Given the talent we recruit, and the level of coaching we're supposed to have, Morris should still be able to motivate his very mediocre by Miami standard squad to beat SB's best squad ever. That's my opinion on it. We're freaking Miami baseball. That should NEVER happen to us, and Morris allowed it to happen, either thru some bad recruiting or lack of coaching/prep (or a combination thereof).

And here's the key--2-3 years before that when he recruited those kids, he knew that's who he was going to have. You have the squad you recruit. It's up to you to develop them and motivate them. Morris didn't get the most out of those guys. Sure, their ceilings may have been lower than a normal Miami squad...but you still don't lose to SB at home in the postseason. Come on.

To boot--how do you think SB got to where they did? Did they recruit on an elite level and the coach just be there to unlock the clubhouse everyday and let the guys play around a little bit? No. They built up that program thru hard work, prep, and coaching. Matt Senk took that program from D3 back in 1991 all the way up to D1 and don't look now, but they're atop the America East again this year and could get back into the postseason.

You're wrong about 2012. Stony Brook was very, very good. CWS caliber. Seven guys drafted, among the most in the country. We were not as good as they were. You have to get past the name.

 

[QueenOfSpades]

He/she indicated in one thread that Morris has some people fooled, yet in this thread he/she is arguing that Morris will have little impact on the motivation going into the upcoming week. Not sure how he could be fooling people yet have no impact on preparation and motivation. I don't think Morris is fooling anyone.

Obviously the players play the game against other players, but let's not act like the coaches sit in their offices all week and then hand in the lineup card and leave.

Morris does have people fooled (especially at Hecht), and he also does not control the outcome of this weekend's series based on what he says and does at practice this week. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[BWCD]

You're wrong about 2012. Stony Brook was very, very good. CWS caliber. Seven guys drafted, among the most in the country. We were not as good as they were. You have to get past the name.

I'm honestly asking and not being a smartass here--of those 7 guys SB had drafted, how many are still in the majors/minors at this point? I'm simply guessing, but I'd be willing to bet that guys like Chantz Mack, Peter O'Brien, B-Radz, Whaley, Salcines, Nedeljkovic, Encinosa, Dale Carey, Rony Rodriguez, Salas, Palmer, Erickson, etc...are probably all playing in some major league team's system at some level. We did have some talent on that 2012 team to work with. All of those guys I named off were very good for us at one point or another for us in their careers at Miami. Some improved, some regressed, some fought injuries.

It's not like we had the children of the poor to play SB and the rest of that regional (Mizzou State/UCF).

 

[BWCD]

He/she indicated in one thread that Morris has some people fooled, yet in this thread he/she is arguing that Morris will have little impact on the motivation going into the upcoming week. Not sure how he could be fooling people yet have no impact on preparation and motivation. I don't think Morris is fooling anyone.

Obviously the players play the game against other players, but let's not act like the coaches sit in their offices all week and then hand in the lineup card and leave.

Morris does have people fooled (especially at Hecht), and he also does not control the outcome of this weekend's series based on what he says and does at practice this week. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

I think what AI is trying to say is that they contradict a little bit. How can he have people fooled into thinking he's doing a great job, when it's implied by you that he doesn't have any kind of job to do in terms of getting these guys ready?

I think you've gotten lost in trying to twist my original words into "Jim Morris controls the outcome" (when that's not what I explicitly said, it's what you read into it), and have ended up seemingly contradicting yourself in two different threads.

 

[QueenOfSpades]

.....it's implied by you that he doesn't have any kind of job to do in terms of getting these guys ready?

That is simply false and I didn't come close to saying anything of the sort. My argument all along has been that a weekend series is not "on him" any more than FSU's fate is solely on Mike Martin. Never even implied that Morris has nothing to do this week.