Article: "Scheme" vs. "Philosophy" - what's really broken?

[ghost2]

Here's where I made the MSU connection: https://michiganstate.rivals.com/cdepthtext.asp?team=MICHIGANST&TEKey=45&Offense=14&Defense=15

If you notice, there's personnel listed for "4-3" and "flex 4-3" both.

 

[ghost2]

Al's philosophy, like his scheme, is all a bunch of bull****.

View attachment 26495

Yes, but did we TRY to bull**** yesterday?

 

[pb5cane]

Good post. I also agree with the point that Coach NoD tries to defend every possible situation and that he ends up not defending anything well at all.

What I've heard is that this is very much an "assignment" defense, particularly at defensive line where they are asked to engage the lineman to free up our linebackers or a blitzing safety/corner. You often hear the mantra "everyone needs to do their job." The plays are designed for a specific player to make a play, which has led to many 1-on-1 tackling situations. When that blitz is picked up, we get picked apart.

D-line is not effective at disengaging blockers --when have you ever see our d-line use a swim move, a club, a spin? All we ever witness is a head up bullrush. Over the past 4 years, we've seen little pressure from just a 3 or 4 man rush.

Defenses start and end with defensive line pressure. Until we stop "engaging" and playing with "violent hands," and rather play a more aggressive defensive line pressure schemes, we'll continue to play this passive style.

This. Name any top defense on any level that operates, as a base defense, with a concept of one on one tackling. Since the dawn of time top defenses have a fast, swarming, all hats to the ball mentality. Why? Because a skill player with the ball in his hand in the open field favors the offense. What looks good on paper has looked like crap on the field for 4 years.

 

[pb5cane]

You guys love to argue.

Nice post Ghost.

I am interested in these rumors of a D'Onofrio/Golden disconnect and if they really exist or if they are a creation of the pending reality that one or both are losing their job at season's end. Either way, there was no way Golden was firing D before this season. He was giving him the season with perceived better talent. We still suck.

And as I stated over and over again, it was never about the talent.

Some of our problems were/are about talent and depth. Especially on the defensive line.

See Luther Robinson...

 

[weownfsu]

You guys love to argue.

Nice post Ghost.

I am interested in these rumors of a D'Onofrio/Golden disconnect and if they really exist or if they are a creation of the pending reality that one or both are losing their job at season's end. Either way, there was no way Golden was firing D before this season. He was giving him the season with perceived better talent. We still suck.

And as I stated over and over again, it was never about the talent.

Some of our problems were/are about talent and depth. Especially on the defensive line.

Doesn't even matter. No DL is going to look good when they play in offensive linemen stances.

 

[Billy D Williams]

We are all measured by some form of statistical data. Our defensive data overwhelmingly suggest ineptitude in in both articulating the "philosophy" and teaching the "scheme". A discussion of either is utterly ridiculous! These kids, this team desperately need a new head coach, DC and OC. Real coaches take 3 star talent and get 5 star results. See Miss State. When you have extraordinary coaches you get extraordinary results.

All discussion should be what can we do to expedite the release of Golden and others!

 

[Paranos]

Here is a UVA game from when Al Golden was the Def Coor. This was from 2004 which was Al Goldens best defense at UVA. The defense looks exactly the same which is sad considering the superior talent he currently has at Miami now.

[video=youtube_share;vEfOoRtM_2A]http://youtu.be/vEfOoRtM_2A[/video]

 

[Angry Ibis]

You guys love to argue.

Nice post Ghost.

I am interested in these rumors of a D'Onofrio/Golden disconnect and if they really exist or if they are a creation of the pending reality that one or both are losing their job at season's end. Either way, there was no way Golden was firing D before this season. He was giving him the season with perceived better talent. We still suck.

And as I stated over and over again, it was never about the talent.

Some of our problems were/are about talent and depth. Especially on the defensive line.

I'm very surprised people still believe this.

The product on the field proves the coaches are not getting it done. I still think there have been some depth/talent issues. People criticize the staff, and much of the time rightfully so, for the ones that got away. My impression was that because those that left are better than what we have or what we replaced them with. It is a coaches job to adjust, or groom the players. They have not. They will lose their jobs because of it.

I am not saying we should not have the talent to beat some of the teams we are losing to, but that is completely different than playing a "Miami" defense or "Miami" football.

 

[Angry Ibis]

One of my biggest frustration is Offense's are getting quicker and play speed games. Here we are trying to bulk up and slow down based off the 80's big ten offense teams.

Where is the aggression and speed defense this U used to be known for???

I do not disagree with you. Which is one of the reasons I question whether a current Big Ten coach, with a resume built on beating Big Ten offenses, is someone we want here. It does not mean that their approach, schemes, adjustments, etc. won't work outside the Big Ten, but it certainly makes me nervous as ****.

 

[The Franchise]

Also, why is the discussion when it comes to Golden always about defense?

The offense, under Golden, has put together maybe ONE solid game against a very good. That's it. Otherwise, they end up sucking against real teams just like the defense. That's why all this assistant coach talk is nonsense.

Because everyone got obsessed with Dorito from the beginning and can't let go of the reality that El Foldo is simply a loser and a failure.

Not everything in football comes down to the coordinators. When your HC is a loser your team will be a loser. The academic analysis of scheme 4 years in is fun and all, but it's useless.

If you can't get more talented players to consistently beat less talented players you have failed as a HC. Really simple.

 

[Angry Ibis]

You guys love to argue.

Nice post Ghost.

I am interested in these rumors of a D'Onofrio/Golden disconnect and if they really exist or if they are a creation of the pending reality that one or both are losing their job at season's end. Either way, there was no way Golden was firing D before this season. He was giving him the season with perceived better talent. We still suck.

And as I stated over and over again, it was never about the talent.

Some of our problems were/are about talent and depth. Especially on the defensive line.

See Luther Robinson...

Go on........I understand that Luther is having success, and was not used the same way here. I also understand the idea of we aren't going to a bowl game, so I am going to install a defense and process that follows a certain set of traits for the long haul. That plan failed. The coaches have failed overall. And they will lose their jobs.

 

[Angry Ibis]

You guys love to argue.

Nice post Ghost.

I am interested in these rumors of a D'Onofrio/Golden disconnect and if they really exist or if they are a creation of the pending reality that one or both are losing their job at season's end. Either way, there was no way Golden was firing D before this season. He was giving him the season with perceived better talent. We still suck.

And as I stated over and over again, it was never about the talent.

Some of our problems were/are about talent and depth. Especially on the defensive line.

Doesn't even matter. No DL is going to look good when they play in offensive linemen stances.

Disagree and agree. No DL will look good or like we want them to playing that way. However, the better the talent and depth, the better the options, not that these apparently stubborn coaches would adjust to the options.

 

[FullyERicht]

Ghost:

Love ya bro, but our base defense is NOT the Under. And it is certainly not the 4-3 over cover 4 of Narduzzi.

It's the Parcells 3-4. Okie front, cover 3.

I defer to your greater wisdom, GS. Could you elaborate on some of the differences between those? (Doesn't have to be in this thread - I'm just genuinely curious.)

With your blessing bro I'd make a new thread going into it with pictures etc. Let me know. For now the cliffs notes version is this:

Parcells 3-4 is a 2-gap front. "DE's" are really DTs, "OLBs" are DE's that can drop into coverage. Against the run, every player in the front 7 is responsible for 2 gaps, and the "OLBs" are the force players versus the run. It's a 5-2 defense but the 2 DE's can drop making them technically OLBs.

4-3 Over Cover 4 (as narduzzi runs it) aka the "Miami" 4-3 is a single gap front. The 4 linemen have only one gap responsibility, and have to immediately pressure that gap. Everyone in the front 7 fills a gap on the line, and forces the ball carrier to run sideways via a technique called "spilling" where the safety to that side comes down as the force player. The cover 2 version is the same, except the Cornerback is the force player.

The 4-3 Under Cover 3 as from Pete Carroll is somewhat a combo of both the above. On one hand, the 4 DL are responsible for one gap. On the other hand, they SAM linebacker and the Weak DE (elephant/LEO) use a "box" technique against the run. What this means is like their 3-4 counterparts, they are the run force players, setting the edge and pushing the ball carrier back into the teeth of the defense.

The Bear front is the same as the Under front, but the Strong DE slides over one gap, and the NT plays a 2-gap 0 technique.

A note on all of these: changes in coverage in each of these three effect the change in who can be the force player.
A second note: Miami runs about 5 different fronts, not including their blitz packages. We are a jack of all trades master of none. It's a CLASSIC sign of a staff that is green. I've said it for three years that we run way way way too much, and thus none of it works well, and is easily exposed by BCS level coaches.

 

[caneaddict]

Here is a UVA game from when Al Golden was the Def Coor. This was from 2004 which was Al Goldens best defense at UVA. The defense looks exactly the same which is sad considering the superior talent he currently has at Miami now.

[video=youtube_share;vEfOoRtM_2A]http://youtu.be/vEfOoRtM_2A[/video]

Groooooohlden!!!

 

[Canezum5]

4-3 Over Cover 4 (as narduzzi runs it) aka the "Miami" 4-3 is a single gap front. The 4 linemen have only one gap responsibility, and have to immediately pressure that gap. Everyone in the front 7 fills a gap on the line, and forces the ball carrier to run sideways via a technique called "spilling" where the safety to that side comes down as the force player. The cover 2 version is the same, except the Cornerback is the force player.
-----------------

Been saying this for a while now. Narduzzi is running exactly what made the canes defenses dominant over the years.

That 4-3 that is really like a 4-2-5 because the weakside outside linebacker(denicos allen) is really like a db/safety. Always fast enough to cover a back or tight end and physical enough to come up and tackle.

Bud foster employs something similar.

But both coaches play a lot of press coverage whether it be zone or man.

Narduzzi will play press man all **** game. Love how he trusts his two stars and walk ons but our coaches dont trust guys who have been covering florida speed and top tier talent all of their lives. smdh......


But one guy said it best already. The ENTIRE PHILOSOPHY of the team is flawed.

How can a man create a 300 page binder on success and what it takes to be a champion when he hasnt been a champion on ANY level.

Thats the biggest red flag of them all!

CLEAN HOUSE!

 

[ScubaCane]

Also, why is the discussion when it comes to Golden always about defense?

The offense, under Golden, has put together maybe ONE solid game against a very good. That's it. Otherwise, they end up sucking against real teams just like the defense. That's why all this assistant coach talk is nonsense.

The big problem is defense and it trickles over to the offense. Against Louisville the offense was handcuffed majorly by the playcalling and had no chance of having success. Against Nebraska the offense was fine, scored 31 and was the only reason the game looked close as the defense was just an absolute disaster. And against GT the offense didn't have a chance to do much as the defense never got off the field. Sure they turned it over a couple of times, but the defense was on the field 40+ minutes not because of the offense, but because they couldn't get a stop. The offense still averaged around 7 yards per play I believe. The fact of the matter is the offense has not been a cause for any of the losses outside of Louisville. The defense is always the main reason we lose.

Oh bull****. The offense has **** the bed against almost every good team we've played here. The entire team sucks, but Golden is so intertwined with the defense that people ignore how mediocre the offense is. No specific unit is "responsible" for a loss--they both suck. One, we scored 24 when it counted against Nebraska--a garbage TD with under a minute left doesn't mean anything. So we scored the same amount of points when it counted against Nebraska as McNeese St. Big whoop. This is a team that hasn't scored more than 20 against FSU in Golden's tenure. That scored 3 points against Notre Dame. 13 points against Kansas St. Put up 28 rushing yards against Virginia Tech last year and was 3-12 on 3rd down conversions. 9 points in a bowl game.

So you can pretend that the defense is "always the main reason we lose" but the main reason we lose is because we're an awful team. Our offense happens to do fine against terrible teams, but then usually comes up short against good teams. That's because our offense isn't very good, so a new defensive coordinator or philosophy on defense isn't the be all end all. We've been consistently mediocre at best against competent teams in all facets of the game.

Great post, I've been screaming this since last year. The offense is as bad as the defense and you might as well lump STs in there as well.

 

[pb5cane]

You guys love to argue.

Nice post Ghost.

I am interested in these rumors of a D'Onofrio/Golden disconnect and if they really exist or if they are a creation of the pending reality that one or both are losing their job at season's end. Either way, there was no way Golden was firing D before this season. He was giving him the season with perceived better talent. We still suck.

And as I stated over and over again, it was never about the talent.

Some of our problems were/are about talent and depth. Especially on the defensive line.

See Luther Robinson...

Go on........I understand that Luther is having success, and was not used the same way here. I also understand the idea of we aren't going to a bowl game, so I am going to install a defense and process that follows a certain set of traits for the long haul. That plan failed. The coaches have failed overall. And they will lose their jobs.

Agreed A.I. Like you and most observant fans I don't buy the disconnect story. Luther Robinson is just another example of failing to find a way to get the most out of the talent you have at one of the most critical positions of need. In this case, they chose scheme OVER talent/depth.

 

[Dynasty]

Ghost:

Love ya bro, but our base defense is NOT the Under. And it is certainly not the 4-3 over cover 4 of Narduzzi.

It's the Parcells 3-4. Okie front, cover 3.

I defer to your greater wisdom, GS. Could you elaborate on some of the differences between those? (Doesn't have to be in this thread - I'm just genuinely curious.)

With your blessing bro I'd make a new thread going into it with pictures etc. Let me know. For now the cliffs notes version is this:

Parcells 3-4 is a 2-gap front. "DE's" are really DTs, "OLBs" are DE's that can drop into coverage. Against the run, every player in the front 7 is responsible for 2 gaps, and the "OLBs" are the force players versus the run. It's a 5-2 defense but the 2 DE's can drop making them technically OLBs.

4-3 Over Cover 4 (as narduzzi runs it) aka the "Miami" 4-3 is a single gap front. The 4 linemen have only one gap responsibility, and have to immediately pressure that gap. Everyone in the front 7 fills a gap on the line, and forces the ball carrier to run sideways via a technique called "spilling" where the safety to that side comes down as the force player. The cover 2 version is the same, except the Cornerback is the force player.

The 4-3 Under Cover 3 as from Pete Carroll is somewhat a combo of both the above. On one hand, the 4 DL are responsible for one gap. On the other hand, they SAM linebacker and the Weak DE (elephant/LEO) use a "box" technique against the run. What this means is like their 3-4 counterparts, they are the run force players, setting the edge and pushing the ball carrier back into the teeth of the defense.

The Bear front is the same as the Under front, but the Strong DE slides over one gap, and the NT plays a 2-gap 0 technique.

A note on all of these: changes in coverage in each of these three effect the change in who can be the force player.
A second note: Miami runs about 5 different fronts, not including their blitz packages. We are a jack of all trades master of none. It's a CLASSIC sign of a staff that is green. I've said it for three years that we run way way way too much, and thus none of it works well, and is easily exposed by BCS level coaches.

Spot on. Just to add a few things. The primary difference between the over and under is that the 3 tech tackle is aligned strong in the over, where as the 3 tech is shifted weak side in the under. In addition, the Miami 43 focused on speed and off the ball quickness for the entire d-line. It is an entirely different philosophy from what Golden and company are running. The BDSD rule that wrecked option teams back in the day still remains part of the overall core philosophy. It's just that in today's spread offenses, the general rule is to not over penetrate and fly pass the mesh point in the backfield.

There use to be a saying that whoever gets to the neutral zone first wins the battle at the line of scrimmage. If there isn't any instant penetration, along with spilling and wrong arming, you might as well run something else other than the 43 because it is defeated before getting started.

 

[DiegoCane]

Ghost:

Love ya bro, but our base defense is NOT the Under. And it is certainly not the 4-3 over cover 4 of Narduzzi.

It's the Parcells 3-4. Okie front, cover 3.

I defer to your greater wisdom, GS. Could you elaborate on some of the differences between those? (Doesn't have to be in this thread - I'm just genuinely curious.)

With your blessing bro I'd make a new thread going into it with pictures etc. Let me know. For now the cliffs notes version is this:

Parcells 3-4 is a 2-gap front. "DE's" are really DTs, "OLBs" are DE's that can drop into coverage. Against the run, every player in the front 7 is responsible for 2 gaps, and the "OLBs" are the force players versus the run. It's a 5-2 defense but the 2 DE's can drop making them technically OLBs.

4-3 Over Cover 4 (as narduzzi runs it) aka the "Miami" 4-3 is a single gap front. The 4 linemen have only one gap responsibility, and have to immediately pressure that gap. Everyone in the front 7 fills a gap on the line, and forces the ball carrier to run sideways via a technique called "spilling" where the safety to that side comes down as the force player. The cover 2 version is the same, except the Cornerback is the force player.

The 4-3 Under Cover 3 as from Pete Carroll is somewhat a combo of both the above. On one hand, the 4 DL are responsible for one gap. On the other hand, they SAM linebacker and the Weak DE (elephant/LEO) use a "box" technique against the run. What this means is like their 3-4 counterparts, they are the run force players, setting the edge and pushing the ball carrier back into the teeth of the defense.

The Bear front is the same as the Under front, but the Strong DE slides over one gap, and the NT plays a 2-gap 0 technique.

A note on all of these: changes in coverage in each of these three effect the change in who can be the force player.
A second note: Miami runs about 5 different fronts, not including their blitz packages. We are a jack of all trades master of none. It's a CLASSIC sign of a staff that is green. I've said it for three years that we run way way way too much, and thus none of it works well, and is easily exposed by BCS level coaches.

Spot on. Just to add a few things. The primary difference between the over and under is that the 3 tech tackle is aligned strong in the over, where as the 3 tech is shifted weak side in the under. In addition, the Miami 43 focused on speed and off the ball quickness for the entire d-line. It is an entirely different philosophy from what Golden and company are running. The BDSD rule that wrecked option teams back in the day still remains part of the overall core philosophy. It's just that in today's spread offenses, the general rule is to not over penetrate and fly pass the mesh point in the backfield.

There use to be a saying that whoever gets to the neutral zone first wins the battle at the line of scrimmage. If there isn't any instant penetration, along with spilling and wrong arming, you might as well run something else other than the 43 because it is defeated before getting started.

That is the insanity of the whole thing. What Miami was built on, where we recruit are huge advantages in today's spread game, and we are trying to go in the complete opposite direction defensively.

 

[ghost2]

Ghost:

Love ya bro, but our base defense is NOT the Under. And it is certainly not the 4-3 over cover 4 of Narduzzi.

It's the Parcells 3-4. Okie front, cover 3.

I defer to your greater wisdom, GS. Could you elaborate on some of the differences between those? (Doesn't have to be in this thread - I'm just genuinely curious.)

With your blessing bro I'd make a new thread going into it with pictures etc. Let me know. For now the cliffs notes version is this:

Parcells 3-4 is a 2-gap front. "DE's" are really DTs, "OLBs" are DE's that can drop into coverage. Against the run, every player in the front 7 is responsible for 2 gaps, and the "OLBs" are the force players versus the run. It's a 5-2 defense but the 2 DE's can drop making them technically OLBs.

4-3 Over Cover 4 (as narduzzi runs it) aka the "Miami" 4-3 is a single gap front. The 4 linemen have only one gap responsibility, and have to immediately pressure that gap. Everyone in the front 7 fills a gap on the line, and forces the ball carrier to run sideways via a technique called "spilling" where the safety to that side comes down as the force player. The cover 2 version is the same, except the Cornerback is the force player.

The 4-3 Under Cover 3 as from Pete Carroll is somewhat a combo of both the above. On one hand, the 4 DL are responsible for one gap. On the other hand, they SAM linebacker and the Weak DE (elephant/LEO) use a "box" technique against the run. What this means is like their 3-4 counterparts, they are the run force players, setting the edge and pushing the ball carrier back into the teeth of the defense.

The Bear front is the same as the Under front, but the Strong DE slides over one gap, and the NT plays a 2-gap 0 technique.

A note on all of these: changes in coverage in each of these three effect the change in who can be the force player.
A second note: Miami runs about 5 different fronts, not including their blitz packages. We are a jack of all trades master of none. It's a CLASSIC sign of a staff that is green. I've said it for three years that we run way way way too much, and thus none of it works well, and is easily exposed by BCS level coaches.

You certainly don't need my permission - I'd love to see it!