3-4 and 4-3 Under - the front 7 (long)

Generally your SDE is a bigger/stronger player. He aligns to the strength of the offense and has to deal with Tackles and Tight-Ends. Think Jelani Hamilton.

The WDE is the guy that aligns to the weak side and is usually on an island with the tackle.
 
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Gunter was my other thought at nickel as well, I just love the idea of Howard mauling slot WRs...

I absolutely love Artie in the slot for certain coverages. You can bring him on the blitz. I doubt we have a better corner to chase routes (crosses, drags) across the field. And, he can support the run game.

I think Deon Bush and Kacy Rodgers would make the best nickel backs currently on this team.... especially Deon Bush.
 
My biggest thing with Donofrio isnt the overall concept, its the execution. For a DC you can give anybody Nick's, 49ers, Seahawks, etc playbook but if there are 3-4 WR on the field and you stay in base 4-3 defense with LB trying to cover slot WR, well lord help us, I dont think anybody can do anything for you.

I saw too much of that, some teams whenever they need to move the ball would just smoothly spread the field run a cross or seam from slot and pick up yards in chunks, Kstate comes to mind which still gives me nightmares


This is exactly what scares/scared me......

It was mismatches plain as day...@ times we had Eddie Johnson covering another teams fastest wr in the slot...and actually looking completely clueless ina ttempting it. Jimmy Gaines also was stuck in that position at times.
 
The nickel guy has to be a quick athlete. That slot WR has a two-way-go. Ain't no sideline for help when you're lined up over the slot.
 
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The nickel guy has to be a quick athlete. That slot WR has a two-way-go. Ain't no sideline for help when you're lined up over the slot.

as bad as cat is...Kacy Rodgers looked legit late last year when lined up in the slot. Remember dude was a cb like his whole life...and looks like one back there at safety..he seems like a guy that just likes to man up on his responsibility...i like Artie being in their also....

The guy who i think guys are downplaying right now..who could make a lot of noise if we let him loose...is Mccord......dude in a wide 7 should give acc tackles problems...big year for him or a healthy Gilbert in that role.
 
The nickel guy has to be a quick athlete. That slot WR has a two-way-go. Ain't no sideline for help when you're lined up over the slot.

as bad as cat is...Kacy Rodgers looked legit late last year when lined up in the slot. Remember dude was a cb like his whole life...and looks like one back there at safety..he seems like a guy that just likes to man up on his responsibility...i like Artie being in their also....

The guy who i think guys are downplaying right now..who could make a lot of noise if we let him loose...is Mccord......dude in a wide 7 should give acc tackles problems...big year for him or a healthy Gilbert in that role.

Wide 7? You mean 9 correct?
 
The nickel guy has to be a quick athlete. That slot WR has a two-way-go. Ain't no sideline for help when you're lined up over the slot.

as bad as cat is...Kacy Rodgers looked legit late last year when lined up in the slot. Remember dude was a cb like his whole life...and looks like one back there at safety..he seems like a guy that just likes to man up on his responsibility...i like Artie being in their also....

The guy who i think guys are downplaying right now..who could make a lot of noise if we let him loose...is Mccord......dude in a wide 7 should give acc tackles problems...big year for him or a healthy Gilbert in that role.

Wide 7? You mean 9 correct?

A lot of the clips I saw of Gilbert had him in the 9. I didn't expect that.
 
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The nickel guy has to be a quick athlete. That slot WR has a two-way-go. Ain't no sideline for help when you're lined up over the slot.

as bad as cat is...Kacy Rodgers looked legit late last year when lined up in the slot. Remember dude was a cb like his whole life...and looks like one back there at safety..he seems like a guy that just likes to man up on his responsibility...i like Artie being in their also....

The guy who i think guys are downplaying right now..who could make a lot of noise if we let him loose...is Mccord......dude in a wide 7 should give acc tackles problems...big year for him or a healthy Gilbert in that role.

Wide 7? You mean 9 correct?

A lot of the clips I saw of Gilbert had him in the 9. I didn't expect that.

Perhaps they want Gilbert to take on fewer direct blockers due to his chronic foot injury? Or his current size (>250)?
 
Are we not asking the players to learn too much though?

They're not professionals, they don't have time to learn multiple schemes.

Our D was at it's best when we put superb athletes on the field and kept things simple for them. We're getting back to the days of having superb athletes - I'd be inclined to keep things simple for them.
 
Are we not asking the players to learn too much though?

They're not professionals, they don't have time to learn multiple schemes.

Our D was at it's best when we put superb athletes on the field and kept things simple for them. We're getting back to the days of having superb athletes - I'd be inclined to keep things simple for them.

Your point is well-taken in terms of keeping things relatively simple. However, there's a difference between consistently having superb athletes and having 7 first rounders on one side of the ball.
 
The nickel guy has to be a quick athlete. That slot WR has a two-way-go. Ain't no sideline for help when you're lined up over the slot.

as bad as cat is...Kacy Rodgers looked legit late last year when lined up in the slot. Remember dude was a cb like his whole life...and looks like one back there at safety..he seems like a guy that just likes to man up on his responsibility...i like Artie being in their also....

The guy who i think guys are downplaying right now..who could make a lot of noise if we let him loose...is Mccord......dude in a wide 7 should give acc tackles problems...big year for him or a healthy Gilbert in that role.

Agree

I think Kacy Rodgers as a 217lb DB could have a real impact from the nickel corner position. He did look legit locking playing man on man in the VT game last year.

Also i'm on the T. McCord bandwagon mane..... I can see him easily being able to double his sack total from last year.

EDIT: Let me add that I think Jamal Carter could be great as a nickelback too, b/c of his strength and coverage ability.... i remember Pete saying that he looked athletic enough to play corner at times when he saw him in high school.
 
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The nickel guy has to be a quick athlete. That slot WR has a two-way-go. Ain't no sideline for help when you're lined up over the slot.

as bad as cat is...Kacy Rodgers looked legit late last year when lined up in the slot. Remember dude was a cb like his whole life...and looks like one back there at safety..he seems like a guy that just likes to man up on his responsibility...i like Artie being in their also....

The guy who i think guys are downplaying right now..who could make a lot of noise if we let him loose...is Mccord......dude in a wide 7 should give acc tackles problems...big year for him or a healthy Gilbert in that role.

Wide 7? You mean 9 correct?

A lot of the clips I saw of Gilbert had him in the 9. I didn't expect that.

McCord, Figs, Gilbert, and Cain are all Perfect for the 9 technique or position (whatever)
 
Excellent threat and post, ghost2. I'm not sure about the learning curve for this type of defensive scheme. Pete Carroll tried implementing this scheme upon arriving at USC. He ended up dropping it and going with the more traditional 4-3 under one gap. The reasoning was that he felt it was just too complicated for the players to execute.

It is interesting in that Carroll learned this scheme while on the defensive staff of the 49ers back during the day. The rush end position was called the elephant position. Carroll renamed it the leo position after taking the Seattle job. During his first year the 'hawks ran primarily the under front. They are more multiple now running everything from an over, double eagle to wide nine fronts.
 
Both years that Golden has been here we've run a fair amount of 4-3 Under sets (I'm fairly sure it's the most common used defense for us against base offenses). Eddie Johnson and Armbrister were consistently playing on the line over the TE. In 3 or more receivers (or any twin sets really), we'd walk the WLB out over him and go to a more traditional 4-3 look (which would really look like more of a 4-2-5 look because the LB was so far out.

But for the Under look, at least last season, usually (and usually might not even be the right word, as guys played lots of different spots), Eddie was at Sam, Gaines at Mike, Denzel at Will, Chick at SDE, Green at weakside end, and then whatever healthy body we could find at the DT spots (though late it was Pierre at the 3 and Porter at the shaded). It's not an ideal set, because you'd like someone a little bigger than Chick at the 5 tech (Hamilton/Kamalu project there very well, though Chick can do it effectively in spurts), and you'd like someone more athletic at the weakside spot (coughAQMcough). With the body types they've been recruiting the Under/3-4 variations definitely seem to fit extremely well. There were times last season where the defense would come out in a straight 3-4 look, and there were also times they would be in the Under set and Green would stand up and shift out a bit to give a 3-4 look.

I really like the Under set because of two main reasons. First, you can disguise a lot of what you do, while also being in really good initial position to defend different looks. Having 5 guys on the line really helps with gap control and edge control, and with the way the DL is set up you can keep your LBs free to run. You can also bring either safety down in the box and still be able to run any coverage and blitz scheme out of the defense (if you have a good enough safety, which I think we do with Deon and eventually Jamal) while having 8 guys in the box to help against the run, or cover the slot with a DB instead of a backer. The second reason, is because you can fit a lot of different types of players in there and also mask a lot of issues (not all, as there are no schemes that can hide ****** DTs). The 5 tech doesn't have to be much of a pass rusher at all, the inside backers don't have to be huge because they're generally protected with good DT play. It does however puts a lot of pressure on the Sam though because they have to be pretty versatile (or you have to play multiple guys at the position, which I think we'll see with Figs/Armbrister/McCord).

It can be a complicated defense but you can keep it simple coverage wise, but the more comfortable the defense is adjusting to the offense the more effecient the defense will be.

All that said, the scheme doesn't matter one bit if you're running weak, inexperienced, untalented players out there, which we saw a lot of the past two seasons. Don't think we'll see that this season.
 
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Great thread and knowledge/analysis going on here. Another thing about this defense that shows up on films is our back seven's run fit, or lack thereof. Often times our linebackers or safeties would run themselves completely out of a play or gap when trying to fill their run gap responsibilities. We used to call it "getting lost in the wash" meaning our backers or safeties would literally get to close to a d-lineman who is playing gap control and ultimately get blocked by an engaged d-lineman. Essentially what happens is the backer is filling a gap that doesn't exist. That's why with a gap control scheme it takes the ultimate "I will only do my job" mentality," otherwise multiple new gaps will be created. If you've ever wondered why we struggle so much on read options or giving up huge gaping cut back lanes this has a lot to do with it.
 
Great thread and knowledge/analysis going on here. Another thing about this defense that shows up on films is our back seven's run fit, or lack thereof. Often times our linebackers or safeties would run themselves completely out of a play or gap when trying to fill their run gap responsibilities. We used to call it "getting lost in the wash" meaning our backers or safeties would literally get to close to a d-lineman who is playing gap control and ultimately get blocked by an engaged d-lineman. Essentially what happens is the backer is filling a gap that doesn't exist. That's why with a gap control scheme it takes the ultimate "I will only do my job" mentality," otherwise multiple new gaps will be created. If you've ever wondered why we struggle so much on read options or giving up huge gaping cut back lanes this has a lot to do with it.

Excellent point. On paper everybody knows their gap and responsibility. When the ball is snapped and linemen start moving so does the gaps.
 
Excellent threat and post, ghost2. I'm not sure about the learning curve for this type of defensive scheme. Pete Carroll tried implementing this scheme upon arriving at USC. He ended up dropping it and going with the more traditional 4-3 under one gap. The reasoning was that he felt it was just too complicated for the players to execute.


Interesting.

I think this is where it becomes important to have a strong culture where guys put in extra work, police themselves, and teach each other. It's also essential to have good roster balance so you're not counting on a wave of first-year guys to be starters.
 
Great thread and knowledge/analysis going on here. Another thing about this defense that shows up on films is our back seven's run fit, or lack thereof. Often times our linebackers or safeties would run themselves completely out of a play or gap when trying to fill their run gap responsibilities. We used to call it "getting lost in the wash" meaning our backers or safeties would literally get to close to a d-lineman who is playing gap control and ultimately get blocked by an engaged d-lineman. Essentially what happens is the backer is filling a gap that doesn't exist. That's why with a gap control scheme it takes the ultimate "I will only do my job" mentality," otherwise multiple new gaps will be created. If you've ever wondered why we struggle so much on read options or giving up huge gaping cut back lanes this has a lot to do with it.


guys were getting their azzes drove eout of gaps on the line. **** near all of our dts save for Curtis Porter and Pierre towards the end were on skates. No frio and them go tmad @ Robinson could dude said f it..and when he ogt in shot up field trying to make his plays..sometimes it work sometimes it didnt.

If their not stout up front we'll see alot of the same again..i cant count the amount of times i saw Earl Moore or King come in to the game and get completely washed.
 
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