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2021 Recruiting Class Countdown: #15-11

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Ethnicsands said:
That's what makes for a discussion. I think a top QB is critical in every class and it's a huge issue for this program that we haven't had a legit good QB since Dorsey. So I'm not sure Garcia isn't No.1 tbh, but definitely I put him after the local 5*s (not because of their rankings but their talent).

I'd probably have Arroyo, C. Smith and Thad as may next 3. I haven't done the work lance did here so just spouting. Here's my tiering of the kids:

1. Taylor, Williams, Garcia
2. Arroyo, C. Smith, Thad
3. Kinchens, B. Smith, J. George, Brinson
4. Seymour, McLaughlin, Rodriguez, Curtis, Johnson
5. Davis, Haye, Troutman, Brantley, Ishmael

I left Borregales out because the OP did but I'd put him in the second tier with Arroyo et al. - a top kicker is worth a lot and is underappreciated, IMO. I am relying on bloodlines and scouting of others here because I can't confirm what a top HS kicker really looks like but I expect this kid will perform for us and that's a big deal.

I'd have Curtis higher at WR but hard to project the position switch. I put Arroyo 4th and think he can be an AA here.
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I won't argue that QB is more important than WR. But I dont give that advantage when ranking them on skill. That wouldn't be fair imo. Yes, a QB is the most important position, but that doesn't make him the most talented player.

I haven't finalized my rankings but I would probably say:

1) Taylor
2) James
3) Melo
4) Arroyo
5) Jake


No positional bias, just talent imo.
 
RedSquare said:
good stuff again!

although, lance, one thing: the Bang-8 is actually run to precisely 7 yards. the "8" is because the post (going all the way back to the original vertical offense passing tree of sid gillman and don coryell) was always the 8 route. The "bang" was the notation that adjusted the stem of the traditional (12 or 15 yd post, depending on the system) .... to 7 yards.

history lesson for the day :cool: :giggle:
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This is true. And as I strive to be extremely detailed should amend. It was a quick example in a stream of consciousness meant to indicate your landmarks are meant to be exact and not approximate, but you are right.
 
Jassid82 said:
Not liking what I am hearing from Brinson as far as breakdown. Tell me this isnt another Aldarius Johnson situation where he struggled to take his game to the next level in college because he wasnt a particulary great athlete..?

Tyler Johnson being this high wont excite the folks who wanted him thrown out the class. Chase Smith sounds super boom or super bust as well. You were spot on with TD and SI evals.
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I’m sure he will touch on it but iirc, receivers’ best traits that carry forward are hands, route running, and body control.

Plenty of guys that run 4.4 and have 40 inch verts that don’t succeed at college level, let alone NFL.

I personally look at guys like Larry Fitzgerald and Jarvis Landry, who don’t have elite athletic traits, but elite SKILL traits.
 
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Da Jumbo Mutombo said:
I won't argue that QB is more important than WR. But I dont give that advantage when ranking them on skill. That wouldn't be fair imo. Yes, a QB is the most important position, but that doesn't make him the most talented player.

I haven't finalized my rankings but I would probably say:

1) Taylor
2) James
3) Melo
4) Arroyo
5) Jake


No positional bias, just talent imo.
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I gotta admit, y ou switching between first and last names threw me for a loop lol. We signed a guy named James? What position does he play?

We're not far off (same top 4 except you put brinson high and I group him with the other two receivers).

I like B. Smith for returns and differentiation from our other roster kids/needs.
 
Ethnicsands said:
That's what I'm here for! :)

You gotta have Arroyo there if not Garcia.

Ain't no one on this site got the balls to demote JW or LT.

Amirite?
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As they say, “gotta keep reading to find out.”

Though it’s not a secret due to other spots I’ve done I’m lower on Garcia than most.
 
ThomasG954 said:
I’m sure he will touch on it but iirc, receivers’ best traits that carry forward are hands, route running, and body control.

Plenty of guys that run 4.4 and have 40 inch verts that don’t succeed at college level, let alone NFL.

I personally look at guys like Larry Fitzgerald and Jarvis Landry, who don’t have elite athletic traits, but elite SKILL traits.
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Fitz had elite athletic traits to me, other than maybe pure high end track speed. You don't get taken top 3 in NFL draft otherwise. Big, long, strong, physical, great body control, great hands.
 
Lance Roffers said:
As they say, “gotta keep reading to find out.”

Though it’s not a secret due to other spots I’ve done I’m lower on Garcia than most.
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I was lower on Garcia until I rewatched his clips and interviews. I think he loves competition and has a fearlessness and confidence we've lacked at QB for a long while (before King anyhow). He also has decent everything else (size, arm, pocket sense, legs). He might not succeed but I'm leaning in here.
 
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RedSquare said:
good stuff again!

although, lance, one thing: the Bang-8 is actually run to precisely 7 yards. the "8" is because the post (going all the way back to the original vertical offense passing tree of sid gillman and don coryell) was always the 8 route. The "bang" was the notation that adjusted the stem of the traditional (12 or 15 yd post, depending on the system) .... to 7 yards.

history lesson for the day :cool: :giggle:
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Great post. Love the learning on this site.
 
Ethnicsands said:
I was lower on Garcia until I rewatched his clips and interviews. I think he loves competition and has a fearlessness and confidence we've lacked at QB for a long while (before King anyhow). He also has decent everything else (size, arm, pocket sense, legs). He might not succeed but I'm leaning in here.
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Most players who have requisite tools meet, exceed, or fail to meet expectations due to things not on their HS tape.

Garcia will be no different. If I were 100% on this stuff I wouldn’t be working corporate life because some NFL team would make me rich beyond my dreams just to keep my evaluations away from other teams.
 
Lance Roffers said:
Most players who have requisite tools meet, exceed, or fail to meet expectations due to things not on their HS tape.

Garcia will be no different. If I were 100% on this stuff I wouldn’t be working corporate life because some NFL team would make me rich beyond my dreams just to keep my evaluations away from other teams.
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I agree. I think he has some of the QB traits that we've lacked. That doesn't mean his other QB skills are good enough but they look ... good enough to me. Can he make good decisions and avoid panicking, becomes the question. I give him a lot of respect for what he did this year when it would have been easy to stay in CA.

Also, I lack some comfort on TVD. Speed of decision-making and release time, and quickness in pocket.

It'll come down to decision-making, as it always does at QB.
 
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ThomasG954 said:
I personally look at guys like Larry Fitzgerald and Jarvis Landry, who don’t have elite athletic traits, but elite SKILL traits
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So confused as to what you think is elite. Landry might not be OBJ but they were both elite in College. And this rating is for College. If you guys are looking at top 10 athletes in the Pros right now then nobody coming out or High School is elite. Every top recruit would be average at best.
 
Ethnicsands said:
The critical traits ('table stakes') for a good WR are hands, willingness to fight for ball and make plays in traffic, ability to separate and short area quickness.

The typical measures of athleticism are speed, vertical, maybe strength and shuttle. If a WR has the table stakes, the athletic quotient helps make them more unique. But as between a fast guy without hands or toughness and a tough guy with hands who's just not that fast, it's easy to see who makes for the better WR. Lance Leggett or Elijah Moore?
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It’s the old Keyshawn Johnson argument. Guy was a sub par athlete but an excellent wide receiver because he had all the “table stakes” plus good size.
 
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omaha said:
So confused as to what you think is elite. Landry might not be OBJ but they were both elite in College. And this rating is for College. If you guys are looking at top 10 athletes in the Pros right now then nobody coming out or High School is elite. Every top recruit would be average at best.
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I’m not necessarily referring to college or NFL specifically. My examples just happened to be in the NFL since they’re easier for me to identify through more accurate testing information.

It was not to say that they’re below average athletes relative to their peers, but that they excel at the skill aspects of the position that are so essential for receivers.
 
@Lance Roffers, I saw the same issues with our DEs you see. Really don't like Ishmael's grab-tackles, hope that gets corrected quickly. Davis is a tweener which always has me jittery as we've been terrible at developing those well. Both have Miami talent.

In addition to Melo being too low. I think Smith is too low. As much as I like some of the other guys still not ranked (whom you will subsequently rank higher than him), these two are better.

Going by your definition of 8-10, both Melo and Smith are 9+ IMHO.
...
8. NFL Draft pick, All-Conference potential
9. 1st team All-Conference potential
10. All-American talent
 
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