The Blue Chip Ratio - Running Back Edition

[GojiraCane]

Notes:
- Although Henry Parish was classified as a 4 star athlete coming out of high school, 247 Sports rerated him as a 3 star transfer

 

[Hegemon]

NFG

 

[caneizzle#1]

This is exactly why Mario and his attention to the offensive line will be one of the biggest difference makers. On paper in 2021 we had depth for blue chip players but couldn't get a consistent running game going to save our lives. If Mirabal through coaching, and Cristobal through recruiting can do what we believe they can do then we will be rolling very soon.

 

[Cryptical Envelopment]

View attachment 177612
Notes:
- Although Henry Parish was classified as a 4 star athlete coming out of high school, 247 Sports rerated him as a 3 star transfer

An example of how stats and data can mislead. Our RB room is better today than it was during the season. We lost Cam, who I would say had a 3-star career, added Parish who both Mario and his RB coach who knows him best were willing to invest a valuable counter, ship and the team's progress and therefore a bit of their careers on, and we added a top 100 stud RB that we beat the SEC for.

Oh and Lingard the 5-star in there. Come on, mang.

 

[bshaw28]

This is why I think the OL argument is overblown.

Look at our RB's 2006-08 - Tyrone Moss / Charlie Jones / Andrew Johnson / Javarris James / Graig Cooper / Lee Chambers

Put'em behind the greatest OL in CFB, and they're still just solid college RB's.

The OL can't make the RB's into stars. Usually - the RB's just either are or they aren't.

 

[clg003]

This is why I think the OL argument is overblown.

Look at our RB's 2006-08 - Tyrone Moss / Charlie Jones / Andrew Johnson / Javarris James / Graig Cooper / Lee Chambers

Put'em behind the greatest OL in CFB, and they're still just solid college RB's.

The OL can't make the RB's into stars. Usually - the RB's just either are or they aren't.

I am failing to see your logic... maybe you mis typed? There is no way any OL conversation is overblown when your talking about your running game.

 

[westcoastcanes]

I am failing to see your logic... maybe you mis typed? There is no way any OL conversation is overblown when your talking about your running game.

I think it was a long way of saying those guys (the RBs) were over rated?

 

[ghost2]

This is why I think the OL argument is overblown.

Look at our RB's 2006-08 - Tyrone Moss / Charlie Jones / Andrew Johnson / Javarris James / Graig Cooper / Lee Chambers

Put'em behind the greatest OL in CFB, and they're still just solid college RB's.

The OL can't make the RB's into stars. Usually - the RB's just either are or they aren't.

I think the reverse is also true. A bad OL can make even a superstar RB look pedestrian.

 

[TooColdToHold]

I think the reverse is also true. A bad OL can make even a superstar RB look pedestrian.

I think that is what happened to Cam Akers at FSU.

 

[bshaw28]

I am failing to see your logic... maybe you mis typed? There is no way any OL conversation is overblown when your talking about your running game.

Here's the last 4 Alabama leading rushers and their career YPC's:

Damien Harris - 6.4
Najee Harris - 6.0
Josh Jacobs - 5.9
Brian Robinson - 5.0

Harris x2 & Jacobs didn't put up big numbers just because of the OL - it's because they're really good RB's.
Robinson ran behind the same great OL and had a bad ypc because he's just an average RB.

What I'm saying is Duke Johnson behind an average OL > Tyrone Moss behind a great OL.

I'm not saying OL play isn't important - I'm saying the talent of the RB is more important than the play of the OL.

 

[bshaw28]

I think the reverse is also true. A bad OL can make even a superstar RB look pedestrian.

This can definitely happen. But much more often (and it's not 100%) - A Great RB can put up big numbers behind a bad OL, but a great OL can't help a bad RB put up big numbers.

Here's a couple examples from 2021 of Good RB's putting up bigger numbers than Knighton behind OL's as bad as Miami.

These RB's don't average 1-2 yards more per carry because of their OL, it's because these RB's are just better at running the ball.

I say this all the time - but year in and year out we're overly critical of the OL, and not critical enough of our RB's when it comes to our running production.

 

[KANE]

This is exactly why Mario and his attention to the offensive line will be one of the biggest difference makers. On paper in 2021 we had depth for blue chip players but couldn't get a consistent running game going to save our lives. If Mirabal through coaching, and Cristobal through recruiting can do what we believe they can do then we will be rolling very soon.

True, but we also had a pathetically simple game plan as far as the running game was concerned. As an OC, you have to help the weak links of your team, with your calls. Basically put…. you can’t run inside zone 95% of the time behind a noticeably weak OL, and have it be an effective running game.

 

[brock]

This can definitely happen. But much more often (and it's not 100%) - A Great RB can put up big numbers behind a bad OL, but a great OL can't help a bad RB put up big numbers.

Here's a couple examples from 2021 of Good RB's putting up bigger numbers than Knighton behind worse OL's.

These RB's don't average 1-2 yards more per carry because of their OL, it's because these RB's are just better at running the ball.

View attachment 177711

I say this all the time - but year in and year out we're overly critical of the OL, and not critical enough of our RB's when it comes to our running production.

Listen to him, he knows his **** especially on rbs

 

[bshaw28]

Listen to him, he knows his **** especially on rbs

Gracias Brock!

In general I'd say - if you're really trying to figure out our run game struggles - do a little less blind blaming of the OL & put a more critical eye on the RB's.

 

[grover]

Gracias Brock!

In general I'd say - if you're really trying to figure out our run game struggles - do a little less blind blaming of the OL & put a more critical eye on the RB's.

Respect. But while they weren't AP, Dallas, Homer, Walton all struggled mightily behind Miami lines, especially on critical downs. Deejay best of 3 I think. Regardless, those dudes weren't mediocre backs. Cheney and Knighton were amazing in HS, they didn't just become bums. Scheme and OL had a lot to do with it.

Let's face it, Gaynor, Donaldson and to a lesser degree Clark just weren't that good last year. And our bench talent looked okay on paper but was a no show in games (Reed, Herbert, Walker etc.).

Beyond OL, I personally hate the way the RPO has taken away the back's forward momentum, at least the way Rosier to King ran it. TVD seems a little more fluid with his RPO decisions. But it generally means or RBs are starting from a complete standstill if the QB doesn't pull the ball.

 

[kryptonite]

This is why I think the OL argument is overblown.

Look at our RB's 2006-08 - Tyrone Moss / Charlie Jones / Andrew Johnson / Javarris James / Graig Cooper / Lee Chambers

Put'em behind the greatest OL in CFB, and they're still just solid college RB's.

The OL can't make the RB's into stars. Usually - the RB's just either are or they aren't.

The OL can't make stars, but stars can't be stars without the OL.

 

[kryptonite]

True, but we also had a pathetically simple game plan as far as the running game was concerned. As an OC, you have to help the weak links of your team, with your calls. Basically put…. you can’t run inside zone 95% of the time behind a noticeably weak OL, and have it be an effective running game.

To me that was Richt's biggest issue. He insisted on calling plays like we had an OL that could dominate, and we just didn't. Not that they were bad, but they couldn't bully anyone. To be successful you need talented backs, a good OL, and a good scheme. Richt didn't help out by running what we were good at.

 

[bshaw28]

Respect. But while they weren't AP, Dallas, Homer, Walton all struggled mightily behind Miami lines, especially on critical downs. Deejay best of 3 I think. Regardless, those dudes weren't mediocre backs. Cheney and Knighton were amazing in HS, they didn't just become bums. Scheme and OL had a lot to do with it.

Let's face it, Gaynor, Donaldson and to a lesser degree Clark just weren't that good last year. And our bench talent looked okay on paper but was a no show in games (Reed, Herbert, Walker etc.).

Beyond OL, I personally hate the way the RPO has taken away the back's forward momentum, at least the way Rosier to King ran it. TVD seems a little more fluid with his RPO decisions. But it generally means or RBs are starting from a complete standstill if the QB doesn't pull the ball.

No one's calling Chaney & Knighton bums - they're good RB's. But you can't blindly think their HS performance will carry over to college. You have to re-evaluate them based on their college performance.

Post-Duke Johnson - Homer & Deejay have been our best RB's. Walton wasn't on their level.

Walton, Yearby, Cam were all on the same level. Each of them had the "next Duke Johnson" label at some point in their career. Each had the same excuses - Bad OL, Bad play calling, called back runs, etc. Knighton has the same label and excuses. It's rinse & repeat.

Knighton/Chaney are on the Cam/Walton/Yearby level right now. All good RB's, but a bit below expectations. Careers are far from over and plenty of talent for them to improve, but they have to make improvements on their own play - regardless of OL & Scheme.

 

[bshaw28]

The OL can't make stars, but stars can't be stars without the OL.

It's not easy, but it's also not as hard as people think. Look at the ACC in just the past 2 years:

Syracuse - Sean Tucker
GT - Jahmyr Gibbs
UNC - Javonte Williams & Michael Carter

Those are big time RB's at schools with OL's as bad or worse than Miami.

 

[clg003]

Here's the last 4 Alabama leading rushers and their career YPC's:

Damien Harris - 6.4
Najee Harris - 6.0
Josh Jacobs - 5.9
Brian Robinson - 5.0

Harris x2 & Jacobs didn't put up big numbers just because of the OL - it's because they're really good RB's.
Robinson ran behind the same great OL and had a bad ypc because he's just an average RB.

What I'm saying is Duke Johnson behind an average OL > Tyrone Moss behind a great OL.

I'm not saying OL play isn't important - I'm saying the talent of the RB is more important than the play of the OL.

no way dude.... there is so much wrong with this logic I am just bowing out.