Question for Dapper

DMoney

D-Moni
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Dap,
You've got a good grasp of this NCAA stuff. Golden mentioned several times we're only taking 15 kids this year. What would be the significance of Miami self-imposing ten scholarships this year and five next year after the NOA but before signing day?

If we're only taking 15 kids, and doing so with the NCAA in mind, that puts us right at 10 reduced scholarships for the year. IMO, it'd be ideal to take the brunt of the hit now given the size of last year's class. Is this feasible? My guess is the NCAA will tack on five more for 2014 and 5-10 more for 2015.
 
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Dap,
You've got a good grasp of this NCAA stuff. Golden mentioned several times we're only taking 15 kids this year. What would be the significance of Miami self-imposing ten scholarships this year and five next year after the NOA but before signing day?

If we're only taking 15 kids, and doing so with the NCAA in mind, that puts us right at 10 reduced scholarships for the year. IMO, it'd be ideal to take the brunt of the hit now given the size of last year's class. Is this feasible? My guess is the NCAA will tack on five more for 2014 and 5-10 more for 2015.

Yes, that can be done. It is potentially a good idea considering the size of last year's class. Back in its case that ended in 1995, UM self imposed the following sanctions (for the 95-96 academic year) - quoted from the Public Report (which came out on December 1, 1995):

The Committee on Infractions adopted as its own the following penalties self-imposed by the institution:
1. The number of initial athletically related financial aid awards in football that are countable under Bylaw 15.02.3 shall be reduced by seven during the 1995-96 academic year, which limits the institution to 18 initial scholarships.
2. The number of total athletically related financial aid awards in football shall be reduced by five during the 1995-96 academic year, which limits the institution to 80 scholarships.

The COI also added to that though (again, quoted from the Public Report):

4. The number of initial athletically related financial aid awards in football that are countable under Bylaw 15.02.3 shall be reduced as follows:
a. 1996-97 -- reduction of 13 initial scholarships, which limits the institution to 12 under current rules.
b. 1997-98 -- reduction of 11 initial scholarships, which limits the institution to 14 under current rules.


10 is a high number, so it is unlikely (in my opinion) that the COI would do what they did back in 1995 - increase the scholarship number penalty from that number in years subsequent to the self-imposed penalty. Without knowing the allegations though, I couldn't guess as to whether the 5 for the following year would satisfy the COI. If they are thinking 6-8 per year for 3 years (for instance), the COI may just add one more year of 5 to your hypothetical (or something like that).
 
The imposition of REAL self imposed sanctions goes a long way. The COI considers those along with the level of cooperation in determining whether to mitigate the penalty that would otherwise impose. Miami has been transparent and that will be noted by Enforcement (believe it or not) and the COI. The cooperation and self imposed sanctions (especially the additional self imposed scholarship restrictions, if they occur as you state in the OP) should definitely mitigate the penalty. In other words, the COI could end up thinking, that based solely on the violations, the penalties should be a 3 year postseason ban, 30 scholarships over 3 years, etc. However, after considering the self imposed sanctions and cooperation, they could mitigate that to 2 year ban and 20 over 3 years (10, 5, and 5). This does happen, and I believe this case presents the highest probability I have ever seen for mitigation.

As an example, the was the South Carolina case recently - here's an excerpt from the Public Report:

The committee took into consideration the enforcement staff's assessment of the cooperation exhibited by the institution. At the hearing, the enforcement staff made the following comments regarding that cooperation:

(The institution) exceeded expectations by adding additional individuals to be interviewed that really helped flush out certain facts (comprising Findings B-1 and B-2). Additionally, before the enforcement staff had an opportunity to execute its document request, the institution provided the enforcement staff with the most damaging information, (the email from representative 1 to the institution's president) requesting (the president's) assistance in the recruitment of a prospective student-athlete.

The committee decided not to impose more stringent sanctions in this case, including a postseason ban because: i) the cooperation exhibited by the institution went beyond its obligation under Bylaws 19.01.3.3 and 32.1.4; ii) the violations were limited in scope; iii) the institution self-imposed significant penalties and; iv) there was no unethical conduct in this case.
 
I guess the real question is whether the NCAA considers former players' cooperation in the same/similar light as the institution's cooperation. Obviously the reasonable answer is "no". However, based on their recent actions, I'm not so certain.
 
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I guess the real question is whether the NCAA considers former players' cooperation in the same/similar light as the institution's cooperation. Obviously the reasonable answer is "no". However, based on their recent actions, I'm not so certain.

Don't confuse Enforcement with the COI. This was my first post on the issue of this letter:

A couple of important things to keep in mind:

1) Enforcement is like the police and prosecutors in one office. They have to investigate the case, then prove it in the infractions hearing. They will always sound over the top - it is their job.

2) There are frequently allegations in a Notice Of Allegations that are not subsequently proven at the infractions hearing.

3) The letter only states that Enforcement will take a nonresponse as an admission. That has no effect on the COI at the hearing - the COI will not necessarily draw the same conclusion. There will still have to be corroborating evidence. The COI will not just take Shapiro's word for things. However, circumstantial evidence such as photos and phone records can add up to corroborate things that Shapiro says. It is evident that there is not circumstantial evidence to support allegations violations by all 100+ former athletes - had there been, yahoo would have included all of them. Moreover, keep in mind that yahoo was actually incorrect on some of the corroborating information. Even if there is corroborating information on 60 former athletes, there is a huge difference between 60 and 114.

4) I had something else to say, but it slipped my mind, so I'll end with this - also keep in mind that there were very few specific allegations about any particular players. Most of them had to do with getting free entry into clubs and free drinks. Those are garden variety violations. Yes, its serious, but that's UNC serious (players getting a few thousand dollars), not USC serious (player getting six figures of impermissible benefits).

Since then, Dennis Dodd wrote a piece and included the following: Former NCAA infractions committee chairman Jo Potutuo replied in an email that she doesn't believe the NCAA overreached on its power in this situation:

"Players still in school have an obligation to cooperate. Those not in school had an obligation to play by the rules when in school, and to cooperate. In these circumstances, I don't think treating silence as evidence of complicity is overreaching, at least as a general matter.
"The enforcement staff has given notice to the players and former players that it will allege silence is evidence confirming case of violations . Ultimately it will be up to the Committee On Infractions to decide if silence should be so treated on the specific facts of particular players and former players and the overall case."
Another source also reminded that it will be up to the infractions committee to consider the complicity of the former players.

Former Miami players will be considered guilty if they don't cooperate with the NCAA - CBSSports.com


I will add to that the following:

I believe the COI will NOT treat silence as corroborating information. Doing so is similar to using anonymous sources in my mind, which is expressly prohibited by Bylaw 32.8.7.4.1:

In presenting information and evidence for consideration by the Committee on Infractions during an infractions hearing, the enforcement staff shall present only information that can be attributed to individuals who are willing to be identified. Information obtained from individuals not wishing to be identified shall not be relied on by the Committee on Infractions in making findings of violations. Such confidential sources shall not be identified to either the Committee on Infractions or the institution.

Note the "individuals willing to be identified" language. Note also the end of the quote by the former chair of the COI - "and the overall case." Everything Shapiro says will need to be corroborated, and silence will not (in my opinion) be accepted as the sole corroboration for anything.

Finally, former players have no obligations under Bylaws 19.01.3 - Responsibility to Cooperate and 32.1.4 – Cooperative Principle, so I don't see their unwillingness to talk being used against UM.
 
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BTW, I'm more or less taking the day off today (you know how hard it is to get a response to anything from a lawyer on the day before a holiday/long weekend?), so ask me any questions you want in this thread. I have seen a lot of misinformation in many threads - there's too much to clarify in every thread.
 
Dapper, you posted that in 95-96 UM was capped at 80 overall scholarships and 18 initial counters. In 96 through 98 the NCAA further reduced initial counters. But, what did they do with the overall cap?

Just curious, because it's a two headed monster.
 
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BTW, I'm more or less taking the day off today (you know how hard it is to get a response to anything from a lawyer on the day before a holiday/long weekend?), so ask me any questions you want in this thread. I have seen a lot of misinformation in many threads - there's too much to clarify in every thread.


I'll bite. There's two schools of thought on what this letter means. Some think it's good news because it means the NCAA has a flimsy case at best and is desperate. Others think it's bad news because is shows they're clearly on a witch-hunt and Miami is gonna get blasted one way or the other. What's your opinion?
 
Dapper, if former players don't talk, is the threat empty? They can't take a one-sided look as an enforcement staff can they?
 
haha so Dapper heres is a question I'm sure everyone wants to know.

What is your take on all of this and what do you think the penalties will be?
 
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Dapper, you posted that in 95-96 UM was capped at 80 overall scholarships and 18 initial counters. In 96 through 98 the NCAA further reduced initial counters. But, what did they do with the overall cap?

Just curious, because it's a two headed monster.

The COI just rolled over the 80 cap that UM self imposed for 95-96.
 
BTW, I'm more or less taking the day off today (you know how hard it is to get a response to anything from a lawyer on the day before a holiday/long weekend?), so ask me any questions you want in this thread. I have seen a lot of misinformation in many threads - there's too much to clarify in every thread.


I'll bite. There's two schools of thought on what this letter means. Some think it's good news because it means the NCAA has a flimsy case at best and is desperate. Others think it's bad news because is shows they're clearly on a witch-hunt and Miami is gonna get blasted one way or the other. What's your opinion?

I would say more like good news - if Enforcement felt like they had enough to corroborate what Shapiro said, they might not bother trying this. Enforcement's job is to be on witch hunt, so I wouldn't be concerned about what they think at all. With respect to the issue of the letter and what the COI would make of things, as I posted above:

I believe the COI will NOT treat silence as corroborating information. Doing so is similar to using anonymous sources in my mind, which is expressly prohibited by Bylaw 32.8.7.4.1:

In presenting information and evidence for consideration by the Committee on Infractions during an infractions hearing, the enforcement staff shall present only information that can be attributed to individuals who are willing to be identified. Information obtained from individuals not wishing to be identified shall not be relied on by the Committee on Infractions in making findings of violations. Such confidential sources shall not be identified to either the Committee on Infractions or the institution.

Note the "individuals willing to be identified" language. Note also the end of the quote by the former chair of the COI - "and the overall case." Everything Shapiro says will need to be corroborated, and silence will not (in my opinion) be accepted as the sole corroboration for anything.
 
Dapper, if former players don't talk, is the threat empty? They can't take a one-sided look as an enforcement staff can they?

I believe the COI will NOT treat silence as corroborating information. Doing so is similar to using anonymous sources in my mind, which is expressly prohibited by Bylaw 32.8.7.4.1:

In presenting information and evidence for consideration by the Committee on Infractions during an infractions hearing, the enforcement staff shall present only information that can be attributed to individuals who are willing to be identified. Information obtained from individuals not wishing to be identified shall not be relied on by the Committee on Infractions in making findings of violations. Such confidential sources shall not be identified to either the Committee on Infractions or the institution.

Note the "individuals willing to be identified" language. Note also the end of the quote by the former chair of the COI - "and the overall case." Everything Shapiro says will need to be corroborated, and silence will not (in my opinion) be accepted as the sole corroboration for anything.
 
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haha so Dapper heres is a question I'm sure everyone wants to know.

What is your take on all of this and what do you think the penalties will be?

My take on the big picture is that Enforcement has been unable to corroborate many things they were hoping to corroborate - that would explain the length of the investigation and this effort to get people to talk.

I could not guess at what the penalties will be, because I have no idea what the allegations are. The biggest issue will probably be the statute of limitations - obviously, enforcement will include allegations from more than 4 years before UM notified them of potential violations. UM will probably argue against that. The COI will ultimately make a decision on the issue - or not...The COI may also decide it needs an interpretation on an issue (such as application of the rule allowing more than 4 years of conduct to be considered) - it can make a request to the academic and membership affairs staff. The interpretation is based on whatever set of of facts the COI provides - so they weigh evidence first, then submit the request for an interpretation (after the hearing). The institution and Enforcement are advised if that happens. The institution can appeal the interpretation.
 
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