3-4 and 4-3 Under - the front 7 (long)

ghost2

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So the many recent posts regarding personnel and scheme got me thinking naturally about our defense and what I think Coach D'Nofrio might be trying to accomplish as an end result. The recent shift toward a larger front 7 coupled with recruiting for the hybrid DE/LB position certainly suggests a move toward the 3-4, but what type?

As Lu pointed out, I'm a trombonist, not a defensive coordinator (dammit Jim!) so I spent the better part of this morning poring over various online readings on different iterations of the 3-4 and came across some interesting - potential of course - ideas.


Alignment of the front 7

If I'm reading the interwebs correctly, one example of a hybrid 3-4 defense is the 4-3 Under look, which can then shift back to a standard 3-4 depending on the situation. The difference is mainly in alignment of the front 7: in a "traditional" 3-4, the NT is playing a Zero technique, lined up directly over center, and the DEs play the 5 tech (over the tackles.) This alignment can also be described as a "2-gap" scheme, in that each lineman is responsible for both of the gaps on either side of his respective OL. A brief aside - we saw footage of our DL practicing 2-gap technique in a recent practice video.

In a 4-3 Under look, the NT shades off-center, one DE plays 5 tech over the weakside guard, and the other DE splits the strong side guard and tackle (the 3-gap). The strongside linebacker acts as the 4th DL in this situation.

I believe it's Coach D's intent to implement BOTH the traditional 3-4 and 4-3 Under looks into the defense, which is one of the reasons the learning curve is so **** steep. It requires our DL and LBs to essentially learn two entire sets of gap responsibilities and switch seamlessly between them depending on down and distance. Now, if it works, it's a thing of beauty which allows for both penetration and gap control, and also provides the framework for lots of turnovers in the LBs and secondary.


Personnel

From a personnel standpoint, I think we'll see guys like McCord and Gilbert in that hybrid DE (LEO) role - that's pretty well been established. The strongside DE is primarily a run stopper - think Chick/Shayon Green, or Kamalu. The NT should be Curtis Porter or Robinson, but I can see Renfrow being brought in for this reason as well - basically we need someone in this position who can take on double-teams and hold the point of attack. The weakside DT is essentially a 1-gap penetrating lineman - Olsen Pierre, in my opinion.

With our traditional 3 LBs being pretty well set in Perryman, Gaines, and Armbrister, I think you'll see Perryman at the SAM position - in this instance, the most versatile and demanding LB position, as it requires the ability to jam/follow TEs, drop into zone, and rush the passer. Gaines and Armbrister (Kirby too) can play MIKE and WILL. In this scheme, the MIKE is still the "field general", and has a variety of responsibilities from controlling running lanes to blitzing to dropping into short zone coverage. I think Gaines is our man here with Kirby being groomed for the future. The WILL backer may well end up the leading tackler on the team, as he is usually uncovered in this alignment - expect Armbrister's stats to shock a lot of folks.

Advantages/Hinderances

If I can point to a current NFL defense that I think D'Nofrio would most like to resemble, it would be that of the San Fransisco 49ers (I can already hear the gaffaws of indignant laughter from the No'Frio crowd - bear with me on this one). The 9ers run both the 4-3 under and the traditional 3-4. The advantages of this scheme have already been covered, but as I mentioned earlier, the single biggest disadvantage is the mental and physical requirements of the front 7, particularly the DL and even more particularly the DTs. It's why strongman Corey King can get pushed back 5 yards on every play. If your body isn't perfectly aligned to your gap assignment, you're gonna end up on your *** no matter how much you can bench...


Summary

Overall, I think this type of defense is (finally) well-suited to our current and future personnel. We're just going to have to accept that as long as coach D is running the show, our front 7 will most likely have a 2-year learning curve. I do expect a vastly improved defense this year and going forward in the short-to-medium term. I think you can expect to see more penetration at the point of attack from our DL, as well as more sacks, hurries, and INTs from our LBs. You'll also see some pretty gaping holes at times that will cause you to throw your remote control at the cat.

I didn't talk about the secondary at all, mainly because this post is too long as it is and my thumbs hurt from typing all this rambling mess out on a tablet. I'll try and look into that later on, or someone else can feel free to take up the reins.


Thoughts?
 
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Dammit man you cant give out this type of knowledge on these boards it makes too much sense someones gonna hate..... This is a great observation ..... I thinknyou hit it on the head.... What do you think about us running something that allows us to have a cover 3 type set up?
 
Good Post - I think that Perryman will be the Will backer. I still think that Figueroa will end up at SAM.

McCord, AQM and Gilbert will play a lot in the Nickel/Dime packages to get after the QB. Hopefully on 3rd and long we bring in 4 DE's like the Giants and attack with Slants/Stunts and some blitzes.

Complex Defenses take 3 years usually, do hopefully in the future guys will be RS So and Juniors before they're expected to be in the rotation.

As far as DB's I don't expect the same cushions that we saw last year by the CB's now that they are stronger in their technique. Also once you master the playbook and have everyone on the same page you can start to disguise the coverages and confuse the QB instead of playing Vanilla like last year.
 
Thanks woosh - I'll try and get to secondary in a bit, but very briefly I think you'll see a lot of cover 3 and cover 1 in this set up. Both require the SS to be rangy. I think cover 1 would be great for guys like Howard and Crawford who are so natural at jamming the WR. I think we overplayed cover 3 last year due to our massive deficiencies in the front 7.
 
In the 4-3 under the Sam is usually on the line over the TE and the WDE is able to rush/drop so he's usually lighter and more athletic, like Gilbert, McCord and AQM.
 
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sst - I agree that Figs will end up at SAM eventually, but I think it might be too much to ask for a freshman to do what this particular scheme requires of its SAM backer - even one as freakish as Figatron. If we mix in more traditional 3-4 or 4-3 I can definitely see it though.
 
One more advantage this scheme has is that it's relatively easy to disguise pressure up front. Hopefully this translates to better pre-snap communication and more confusion in OL protection.

Another NFL team to look at for this scheme is the Seattle Seahawks.
 
if u want a visual of how it should look, Michigan ran the 4-3 under last year and played it pretty well
 
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Good read, seems logical. I've given out too much rep in the last 24hrs according to the staff (still think that's a silly stipulation)
 
Many of the the 4-3 looks and 3-4 looks are the same, the only difference being...how many hands are in the ground.

In this diagram we see the 4-3 Under, which is the same exact thing as the 3-4 Under front. Only difference is the personnel.

4-3-under.png
 
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Thanks woosh - I'll try and get to secondary in a bit, but very briefly I think you'll see a lot of cover 3 and cover 1 in this set up. Both require the SS to be rangy. I think cover 1 would be great for guys like Howard and Crawford who are so natural at jamming the WR. I think we overplayed cover 3 last year due to our massive deficiencies in the front 7.
This was exactly what ive been thinking to allow someone like Howard the ability to play to his strengths as a jam corner and also allow us to have that extra rangy safety roaming .... Maybe an Jenkins, Rodgers and. Roaming Bush ... Once again great post....
 
Fun Fact - Roaming Bush was my high school girlfriend's nickname (I think she was Native American...)
 
I agree 100% with this being a 2 year learning curve type situation. Also why when we had such young undersized raw players last year trying to run it the results are what they were.

Bicho feels the fact that the upperclassmen on defense left by Shannon being such a dumpster fire is the main reason for the mess last year. If he at least had some veterans who weren't JAG's around then they would have been physically more ready and able to learn a complex defensive system much faster than some 18 year old right out of highschool.
 
Bicho expects much improvement this year with hopefully a top 50 defensive ranking. Much better than 118 or whatever it was last year.

Bicho still feels like we are about 2 more recruiting and developing cycles away from getting back to say the top 10 on defense. And thats if everything goes right the next 2 years or so.
 
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